Aggressive Feminism Boards

[PerverseConverse]

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

People are repeatedly saying that of course there's concerns in regards to self ID, but for some it isn't about self ID, they have a problem with all transwomen!
THAT is the problem. Not the self ID.

Can you give your criteria for a transwoman who you would consider a woman and a 'self iding woman' that you would have 'concerns' about? Where is the line? Genuine questions by the way, I believe these lines are quite difficult to draw.

. I think it’s because people very rarely come on here to put across other views and so there’s just stock responses to whatever is being said, without actually reading what has been written.

This is it in a nutshell. No one responds to what you write. They just post stock answers.

I don't agree with self ID. That is it.

I've directly quoted where she says you would expect a female to have some or all of the features and I've said her next post adds the qualification that they once had them. So I am deliberately not misrepresenting them by trying to suggest that they meant women that had a hysterectomy for example.

How many females do you think have none of those features at all? Not one of them? Who don't have XX chromosomes (so they are already intersex) and have nothing at all of a female reproductive system?

Intersex people are not your gotcha here.

Verbeena it’s like shouting into a black hole

You're not kidding!

there’s just stock responses to whatever is being said, without actually reading what has been written
Yep, sometimes (when they've been out on the main boards and more of a broad range of opinions out there) the responses just come as stock reading off a sheet as they're not always in context, it just shows up as strange.

No matter how many times we try and put our point across

Which point? I don't know what your point is.

I don't agree with self ID. That is it.

So what are your criteria for a transwoman to come under the definition of woman?

The lines are so difficult to draw. I honestly couldn’t say what I would definitively consider the difference between a transwoman and a self-IDing man. For me, personally, it would be bottom surgery as a minimum. But that isn’t accessible to all transwomen, so I would then be excluding people who I also didn’t think were actually transwomen anyway because they hadn’t had the surgery. So fuck knows is basically what I’m saying.

There seems to be a conflation happening:

Not accepting that any male is a woman doesn't mean the same as 'having a problem with all transwoman'

This is it in a nutshell. No one responds to what you write. They just post stock answers.

Funny because that's exactly what I think about most of the posters on your side of this argument.

How many females do you think have none of those features at all? Not one of them?
Who said none? Not one?

That poster said you would expect some if not all.

How many is some?

How many women would have only one or maybe 2? How many women are excluded from that definition?

Not accepting that any male is a woman doesn't mean the same as 'having a problem with all transwoman'

Exactly.

Many of those critical voices are certainly sincere self identified feminists of the 3rd wave. I don‘t know whether 3rd wave feminism was some cruel joke played on women by MRAs or whether it was a genuine thing, but whatever it was, the thinking propagated harms women.
Heck, a German feminist of that brand recently proposed that you should not talk about having survived rape or having been victim of rape but about having experienced rape, in order not to prejudge how the rape may have been felt by the woman.
It is actually the logical consequence of a movement that believes prostituting themselves empowers women.

So fuck knows is basically what I’m saying.

I agree, I have thought about this a lot. But then that is what has brought me to the conclusion that the only definition we can have, which works, is adult human female. Everything else is totally subjective and arbitrary. And we can't base policy and law upon that.

That poster said you would expect some if not all.

So she said a person with some. How many women do you think have none at all?

How many is some?

Who cares? It's an individual's opinion which is not the definition of woman in the OED.

What is the material difference between an MTF trans person and a man self IDing as a woman?

Why is it wrong not to accept that any male is a woman?

So your issue isn't just with self ID? It is with all transwomen, just by virtue of them being transwomen

I don't have a problem with any group of people. I have a problem with anyone that causes me a problem. If a woman commits a crime against me I don't have a problem with all women. I'm not suspicious of all women.

As long as people are law abiding that's enough for me. I'm not going to start excluding anyone unless they do something illegal and then I only hold that individual to account. Not everyone in their class.

Poor old Bowl

she has been invisible on this thread - no one wants to reply to her

because she is making a very good point that repeatedly stating an opinion, then getting angry when people counter that opinion with facts is not really how people behave if they want others to take their opinions seriously

countering with facts, taking part in back and forth, that's how people who's opinions I take seriously behave

except she said it in a much better and nicer way than me

I don't have a problem with anyone - unless they are nasty. I simply don't think people can change sex and don't accept any male born person as a woman.

So your issue isn't just with self ID? It is with all transwomen, just by virtue of them being transwomen

Exactly.

I simply don't think people can change sex and don't accept any male born person as a woman.

Ok. Then we shall agree to disagree.

So your issue isn't just with self ID? It is with all transwomen, just by virtue of them being transwomen

No my issue is not just with self ID as I have stated repeatedly. I do not believe a biologically male person can ever become female in fact I know that, as it is a scientific fact. I do not believe female people should be allowed no privacy from male people or that male people should be allowed to take things meant to address sex based oppression and the disadvantages women face by virtue of our biology.

What is the problem with that?

quote

Why is it wrong not to accept that any male is a woman?

So your issue isn't just with self ID? It is with all transwomen, just by virtue of them being transwomen

Exactly. The whole point, it's blatantly not just about self ID on these boards. Lots of people do have genuine self ID concerns, but for some it seems so much than that.
That's where the problem lies.

That's your opinion and it's yours to have.

I don't agree.

I'm not the judge of which opinion is right.

As long as people are law abiding that's enough for me. I'm not going to start excluding anyone unless they do something illegal and then I only hold that individual to account. Not everyone in their class.

I don't hold all men accountable for male violence. But to tackle male violence it's necessary to acknowledge that there is a problem.

For me, one of the main things about feminism was that it tried to protect women from men - from their domestic violence and sexual abuse. Safety is everything - if we cannot be safe we can't lead fulfilled lives and so refuges were created and rape crisis centres to help protect us.

Before the reconsideration of the GRA I know my friends and I would have always been supportive of transwomen - it's more than likely we'd be accepting of them in changing rooms and other female places, because we recognised they were vulnerable - as we were - from men dressed as men.

What's happened now, though, is we're being asked to undergo cognitive dissonance. We're being asked to say that transwomen ARE women, when we know that they are not. That's not to say anything about our attitude towards them - whether this is your best friend or what, it's a man who would prefer you to think of him as a woman.

That's what I can't do. I feel like I'm living in the 1984 novel. I'm being told that what I see and what I know just aren't true, and that something I know isn't true, is.

It's absolutely mind-bending. Not in the way that perhaps my elderly mum felt when she was told it was legal to be gay - she was probably confused then and didn't understand (she lived a very, very sheltered life) and she thought it was all wrong and the country was going to the dogs, etc, etc, but she wasn't being told that black was white.

It's easy to accept other people want to live a different life to you. It's impossible to accept that someone who isn't a woman, is a woman. And once that kind of cognitive dissonance is accepted by the public, then god help us as we're basically telling everyone we will believe anything at all.