PM radio four - Stonewall petition

[FreezerBird]

At the top of this evening's PM programme they've trailed 'live debate' about the Stonewall petition.

Does anyone know who's on?

Excellent interviewer there (who was it, I didn't catch her name?). That does not sound like a woman who has drunk the koolaid, lots of challenge and presenting the absurdity of the no debate position.

I hope Women's Hour was listening.

Well, I think that answers any lingering doubts about wether Stonewall give a shit about women.

I may have shouted a few swear words during the second half.

It wasn't a 'debate', maybe that was just as well but would have been better if Johnny had been allowed a brief response to what Hunt said.

Still - even handed coverage from the BBC is progress!

Well done Johnny.

Let's not forget this just went out on the BBC

For them this is a massive volte-face from previous.

Ruth Hunt has simply confirmed what we knew, no big deal.

NO, that is not at all what the GRA means. It is not enshrined in law that "trans women are women" just because they say so. It's a legal fiction granted to a few individuals after they have gone through a verifiable process, and there are clear sex-based exemptions that still exist even for those with a GRC! The whole reason you are PUSHING FOR SELF-ID is because the law DOES NOT say that all self-declared trans women ARE women.
The breathtaking way at the end of she says "look forward to the outcome of the consultation" as though Stonewall has already "fixed it"......

*deliberately misleading because she's not only referring to them.

Darn, missed it

Let's hope this means the BBc will now be allowing more balanced coverage of this.

@JonnyBest was outstanding! Mwah mwah mwah!!!

Caroline Quinn I think. She was fantastic. Hoping it rang alarm bells for anyone who doesn't really appreciate the issues. I like how she said 'Thank you' to Ruth Best at the end - she sounded very hesitant.

pennydrew it will be on catchup on iplayer soon.

Doh! Ruth Hunt.

That was fantastic. Ruth Hunt came out and said repeatedly that transwomen are women without engaging at all in the rights of women. That will peak some of the audience.

Unfortunately nobody mentioned that 85% of transwomen have fully intact male genitals. Nobody mentioned transwomen as lesbians. Hopefully there will be further interviews.

I am so relieved to have heard a proper interview about this on R4. Hopefully the BBC is getting its head out of its arse. I was on the point of campaigning against the license fee I was so incensed that I could not remove my business from the BBC like I could for Ocado (eat a tonne of Birds Eye products now too. Potato.)

Transmen not men then?

Thanks for this I just listened to it live. Carolyn Quinn (was it her) sounded as if she was barely suppressing rage when talking to Stonewall Ruth.

No, the GRA said transwomen WITH A GRC are women, Ruth.

Not bearded, hairy, penis wagglers.

He was good, that RH is very fluent but has that David Davis type sneeriness to her tone- it’s intended to put off greater probing I think.

Pressed post too soon. The GRA says that transwomen with a GRC can be treated as women for most purposes, but there are exemptions under some circumstances. It does not say that 'transwomen are women'. That is a lie.

Carolyn Quinn is a huge improvement on the chap on Today (whose name I can't remember for the moment)

I don't think Quinn could have raised her eyebrows higher

Thank you Carolyn Quinn

Actually I really enjoyed that the presenter was very intelligent seemed completely engaged with the issues and knew what was going on.

I would have liked Ruth Hunt to have been challenged over why she has discarded lesbians and is not also considering their rights.

However they can't do everything in one small segment. We need an hour long programme on this not just a 5-minute snippet.

Ruth Hunt was lying about the legal status of transwomen. Also I wish people would say "what exactly counts as a transwoman?"

Because that rapist Karen White counted by Stonewall's definition, though not by the law's.

Shame JB didn't get the chance to challenge RH a bit more, perhaps to clarify all the different permutations of trans that Stonewall recognise. But I bet it was all timed to the second to ensure nobody got to speak a fraction longer than the other. Shame Carolyn Q didn't just clarify the law and the fact that it doesn't just say'all transwomen are women, yes even those who are only women on Thursdays' which is essentially Stonewall's position I guess.

I think SW showed themselves up to be very intolerant and arrogant, not to even acknowledge that the position they promote could be problematic for many groups. Very much 'talk to the hand'.

She had no comment at all on the impact upon women because away from a prewritten statement it isn't something she can argue. There is already factual evidence of the impact on women. So she will just ignore it and hide behind a (wrong) interpretation of the law.

It's also a bizarre argument that she has to respect/ uphold this supposed law when Stonewall is currently campaigning for the law to be changed, and have also regularly fought against laws in the past. Did Stonewall spout that the law said marriage was between a man and a woman so that was that?