Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Flip

1 2 3 4 5

Original poster

Stop Funding Hate has joined forces with Mermaids

123 replies

GColdtimer · 03/10/2018 12:42

To produce a video to spread the love instead of the hate.

I have messaged and commented on their page. I have so much respect for this organisation I am deeply disappointed.

www.facebook.com/stopfundinghate/

OP posts:

invisibleoldwoman · 04/10/2018 18:44

I used to support Stop Funding Hate when their main focus was trying to organise boycotts of advertisers in papers that published very racist stuff about immigration, muslims, etc.

But then their focus seemed to widen and I wasn't sure that boycotting companies for using legitimate advertising outlets was making a protest or attempting to shut down another groups freedom.
I also became aware of the transactivists trying to get advertisers to withdraw from mumsnet.

Then Stop Funding Hate started urging a boycott and protest the details of which I forget but which I felt again was actually trying to shut down disagreement and debate. So I stopped funding them. So this drift towards censorship and shutting down of debate has been going on a while.

Glad they didn't get anymore of my money than they did!

Elephantinacravat · 04/10/2018 18:52

if you're saying transitioned transwomen aren't women that IS transphobic

No. It's. Not.

FloralBunting · 04/10/2018 18:54

You know that old phrase about 'power corrupts'? Well, I'm taking this as a saultary lesson. I don't agree with censorship as an idea by and large, but I understand the impetus behind pressuring organizations not to be racist. It's a laudable thing to be anti-racist.

However, it seems to me that while SFH started with the best of intentions, they've rather got the wind in their sails and are enjoying being the arbiters of what is acceptable discourse in public.

I'm taking that personally, in that right now, my motivation is solely the rights of women and girls being protected, and I heed the warning that if I lose sight of that I could end up doing very stupid things which completely undercut the things I stand for, just SFH have done.

Honestly, there's a lot of guilt-by-association arguments in this wider debate that I reject, but when you find yourself, not only on the same side as people promoting the dreadful things done to children that Mermaids does or defending rapists accessing victims more easily, but actually pushing those ideas yourself, you really need to ask if you haven't become what you despise.

VerbeenaBeeks · 04/10/2018 19:02

No. It's. Not.

Well, where do you go from that? It is, discriminating and denying the existence of transitioned women as being women is the very definition of transphobia.
If you can't see that, it's not a case of anyone "silencing" you, it's transphobia pure and simple.
Even "Stop Funding Hate" agrees! Does that not chime any bells at all?!

Elephantinacravat · 04/10/2018 19:15

Well, where do you go from that? It is, discriminating and denying the existence of transitioned women as being women is the very definition of transphobia.

What do you mean by 'transitioned' in this context? How far does one need to have gone in order to actually be a woman?

I'm not denying the existence of transwomen. I'm not discriminating against them. I'm not saying that I think transwomen should be 'exterminated' or should be physically attacked, or not be able to get a job, or vote, or get married.

I'm saying that men aren't women.

VerbeenaBeeks · 04/10/2018 19:21

I'm not denying the existence of transwomen

You literally just did in your comment!

here:
I'm saying that men aren't women
You refuse to accept them as women. Denying their existence, no?

Original poster

GColdtimer · 04/10/2018 19:24

I am not denying their existence. I am saying they are not women. It's a biological fact.

Trans women's assertion they are women is purely subjective. They can identify however they wish. It's massively entitled to expect the world to agree with them.

Can I ask what your definition of "woman" is?

OP posts:

Original poster

GColdtimer · 04/10/2018 19:25

denying they are women is not denying their existence.

OP posts:

Chocolala · 04/10/2018 19:27

No verbena. They are transwomen. Not women. They can be celebrated as the transwomen they are. But they are biologically male.

VerbeenaBeeks · 04/10/2018 19:29

There's just no point,is there? It's going to go round and round and round.
If you don't even know what transphobia is..... well, what do you do?
Just don't be surprised when Stop Funding Hate... erm.... stops hate!

Elephantinacravat · 04/10/2018 19:29

You refuse to accept them as women. Denying their existence, no?

No. How can anyone deny transwomen exist, you can tell they exist by using your eyes and ears? Transwomen exist: as transwomen.

They are not women. They are transwomen. If they were women, they wouldnt be transwomen would they?

They can identify however they like, they can live however they choose for themselves, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has to accept they are women when they are not. The reality is that they are men. I don't understand why this is so controversial to say?

FloralBunting · 04/10/2018 19:30

How does accepting the physical fact of biology deny the existence of what someone feels about themselves??

I don't deny that some men think they are women, and I'm happy to use the appellation 'Transwomen' for them. I do deny that their feelings trump provable reality.

MinecraftHolmes · 04/10/2018 19:31

You refuse to accept them as women. Denying their existence, no?

Transwomen exist as transwomen. Denying that they are women (adult human females) isn't denying that transwomen exist.

FloralBunting · 04/10/2018 19:32

But no, tbh, there probably is no point in the conversation when one person thinks that reality itself is transphobic. I can't do a thing about changing reality so there's a big old impasse right there.

VerbeenaBeeks · 04/10/2018 19:33

They are not women. They are transwomen. If they were women, they wouldnt be transwomen would they?

Now that, yes - they're not biologically women obviously, they are transwomen.
Of course, not possible to be biological.
You've said they're women.
Anyone that insists on calling them men though, or deliberately calling them he, that is transphobic.

Elephantinacravat · 04/10/2018 19:34

If you don't even know what transphobia is..... well, what do you do?

So you are saying that speaking objective biological truth is 'transphobia'? Do you really think that humans can change sex?

Can you give me another group who demanded that the whole world agreed that they were something that they were not? And if people didn't they were '.....phobic'?

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 19:37

Thats one busy office they have. Over 4000 businesses registered at that address.

TigerDrankAllTheWaterInTheTap · 04/10/2018 19:38

This hyperbolic language does not help. Nobody is saying trans people don't exist. Of course they exist. But just saying 'I was born X, but now I am Y' doesn't make it true. There needs to be some objective evidence to back the assertion up. In the case of people asserting that they have literally changed sex, the evidence is lacking.

Elephantinacravat · 04/10/2018 19:40

Anyone that insists on calling them men though, or deliberately calling them he, that is transphobic.

They are men though. Men are adult human males. They are men who feel more comfortable presenting to the world according to the social stereotypes normally associated with women. Which they have the right to do if that doesn't impact anyone else.

The 'trans' prefix on 'transwomen' signifies that they are not female, ie. Not women. Woman means 'adult human female'. These words have meaning you know.

FloralBunting · 04/10/2018 19:45

I still find it so odd when some argues with all seriousness that calmly stating that someone of one sex is not the opposite sex is an example of 'hate'.

I get that you could conceivably believe that it might be rude, if you prioritized the feelings of comfort of the people in view over anything else.

But hatred? That's nuts.

VerbeenaBeeks · 04/10/2018 19:51

So you are saying that speaking objective biological truth is 'transphobia'? Do you really think that humans can change sex?

I didn't say that at all. You're either twisting or seeing what you want to see.
Try actually reading what I said in my last comment.

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 19:53

I've looked at the director. Oddly they all have pretty low online profiles apart from a lawyer for Tell MOMA.

They group spends it's time telling advertisers not to advertise on newspapers they don't like - whilst telling everyone not to hate (which amuses me). I can only see one newspaper article referring to bullying and a reference to some website called judas-watch (again charming for an anti hate group).

I haven't time to poke about but it seems like a little group without much teeth who are trying to at with the big boys.

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 04/10/2018 19:55

Then it comes down to what you think a woman is i.e what makes women different from men?

So what do you think a woman is? What makes us different from men?

DayMay · 04/10/2018 19:58

Every person on this planet exists.

You can't force your belief on others.

I don't believe males are women.

I am sorry it makes some people sad, it's their problem not mine and maybe some therapy may help them accept this.

DayMay · 04/10/2018 20:00

Transwomen are transwomen.

Women are women.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5