Lucy Bannerman in the Times "Trans movement has been hijacked by bullies and trolls"

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-movement-has-been-hijacked-by-bullies-and-trolls-lwl3s73vj?shareToken=fb77f832e38958413ff393fd4832a87f

Passive aggressive "do you really mean to be transphobic?" with "here, let me put these words into your mouth". I find these manipulative tricks creepy and but also common.

It seems to be either that approach or abuse. I don't believe there's anything to be gained by engaging with it.

W Yorkshire (I’m from S York’s originally, this is an area I know very well) has a problem with women.

It’s been whispered for a long time that Saville didn’t operate in a vacuum.

This article could not have been published even a few months back.

Every day I wake up and thank Dr Harrop for making a fuss about this poster and bringing it to the attention of the nation media so that trans ideology can be seen for the farce that it is. He's done a brilliant own goal there -thank you Dr. Harrop! And thank you Posie for putting the poster up in the first place.

I'd guess rat, that posters here actually have their own opinions, as we're actually all individuals.

So for some it is self ID they are most concerned with, for others it is TRA behaviour, and for others it is the whole ideology or the anti-science-ness of it.

But, y'know, individuals will have their individual opinions.

Also I know I've said this a hundred time - there is something rotten, and it's not in Denmark it's in Leeds. Extraordinary concentration of incredibly fucked up, woman hating, child endangering stuff centered around that city and region. It needs looking into (not by the West Yorkshire police, who I wouldn't trust to run a church raffle).

This. Again and again Leeds and West Yorkshire are somehow involved.

Excellent piece by Lucy, and another good piece on the Guides situation.

More than anything, though, I'm encouraged to see that the overwhelming number of comments are sensible.

Excellent article.

Yeps Leeds and the West Yorkshire police

Don’t the police there have that weird twitter account where they tweet political stuff?
I rember a women writing here about is it holbeck where women are now legally prostituded and how dreadful ?

Good for Lucy!

I looked at Ocado's latest TrustPilot reviews: the negative comments are still coming in and Ocado has yet to address them.

My favourite was: Go woke Go broke. You go - for broke - Ocado!

First step is the freedom to have open discussion.

The open discussion can revolve around who society will consider as women and in what circumstances. Somewhere on the spectrum between Self ID/Stonewall definition and Biological Females only. My guess is that there is genuine public sympathy for those who feel 'born in the wrong body' but that there will a call for professional diagnosis and a level of proven commitment to living as the opposite sex, and a desire to ensure girls and vulnerable women are protected. And protection for children to prevent them making irreversible decisions that could be regretted.

Open debate first. Thank you Lucy (and MN)

Thanks too to the editors of The Times (John Witherow), Sunday Times (Martin Ivens) and The Spectator (Fraser Nelson)

There wouldn't be a platform for the journalists without their editors' support

Those comments are brilliant.

Well done, Lucy.

I lived in Leeds. years ago. I love Leeds.

I'm overseas now. I quite often post GC stuff on FB. Usually I used to get tumbleweed, an occasional cautious like, & sometimes a pile on from the same few shouty 'trans allies'.

Now I'm getting quite a few likes & comments in agreement, & the shouty 'allies' have definitely ratcheted up the shoutiness & ad hominems.

Guess where all the shouty ones are based?

I loved Leeds. Now it's starting to feel like Derry in It.

(sorry to any proud Loiners ).

Excellent article, anyway...

FWIW, I actually have sympathy for posters like Rat that have been around for a long time, and keep coming back to threads, versus the new posters who write an incredibly goady OP and flounce off. Chatting with Rat on a different thread helped my own thinking about self-ID. And proves this isn't actually an echo-chamber (just a majority gender-critical forum). However, most long-time posters on here have already heard all of the common arguments (I have yet to see any groundbreaking points made by a trans activist supporter on here) and seen the tactics employed to derail a thread. So the reaction of "here we go again", with an eye roll and a bunch of posts disputing a trans activist claim is pretty understandable.

Still though, this thread is about the Times piece. For which I say "Brava Lucy!"

Well-written and what a way to end:

It’s that kind of cowardice that is enabling smear campaigns against those trying to discuss what activists’ demands to recalibrate the human race will mean for everyone else. Like it or not, genitalia is at the heart of this. It would be nice, for everybody’s sake, if all these organisations began to show some balls.
(Or ovaries.)

But look, don't answer that, you clearly can't speak to a woman who isn't afraid to publicly and politely disagree with you and I didn't come here once more to be called names and abused. Again. So you carry on chatting to those who agree with you, which seems to be all you want to do

So you're complaining that people won't debate you and then telling them not to respond to you. That's clever isn't it?

You come on here and feign ignorance, seeking people to "clarify their meaning" when you know full well what they mean. When people call out on your tactic you make a fuss about being called names. It's pretty clear.

If you were to disagree and present a coherent argument you might well be engaged with rather than dismissed or "called names" but saying you need clarification is, as said upthread, manipulative.

Rat holds a non-dictionary definition of woman that I cannot get my head around, but I agree you shouldn't be unkind to her. She's not a "goady fucker" no need to get Sweary,G. On other issues she's quite reasonable.

Like Lass on other threads, it would be boring without them.

Brilliant article. It's how I feel: angry and frustrated. Nothing like that would have been published a year ago. At least, I couldn't find anything (apart from women's blogs) when i first started questioning it all.

Having disagreed with a lot of what rat posts, mainly everything directly linked to that odd definition of 'woman' I too have had a few very interesting discussions.

But I always call the disingenuity of 'why must you do this?' posts, and rat that is what your first response here was!

At some point in time every woman is going to say, out loud, in an angry manner "Fuck 'em all" and they will mean it. Why? Because the activism gets too aggressive, too close to home, too fucking scary and real life.

This last week, including Leeds City Council and the overnight doxxing of PP has been too much. And many otherwise more careful women are many, many steps closer to saying all of those nasty bigoted things TRAs have been waiting for.

And those women will be vilified.

Not so the men who threaten in real life, hurt in real life.

You go - for broke - Ocado!

I shall be uploading photographs of myself wearing an Adult human female T-shirt in supermarkets whilst holding Birds eye products, let's show the stock markets what type of woman brands should support.

rat if you had directed your question about whether there is a problem with all transpeople to the individual poster who said what you quoted then that would have started a discussion. Especially as many previous posts had said something different.

Your post read like you were saying the mumsnet central fwr viper committee has just issued new guidance and you want clarification.

I like that you come here to give your viewpoint but that got my back up immediately. Debate with individuals to get somewhere. We are all different. There is no hive mind.

RatRolyPoly

And I don't tell women they can hold the opinions they do, I simply disagree with those opinions.

Yesterday you told us repeatedly that we must not respond to a sports consultation. When I asked you questions about the impact on girls' and women's participation in sports which might result from self-id, you refused - completely - to engage and ran off, claiming a "pile on". Even after I offered some statistics on the differences - the massive differences - between U13 and U15 boys' and girls' 800m national records, you refused to discuss. I've seen you voice opinions on sport before, but on this - silence.

It's not the gender critical side who are abusive and aggressive, it's not the gender critical side refusing to discuss and debate - it's those who want to entirely destroy girls and women's safety, participation and rights.

I told a few friends that I would be attending the Linda Bellos demonstration. (Where I met the wonderful SwearyG!) None were aware of the Government consultation nor the implications, and were rightly horrified. Equally all were concerned for people who felt "born in the wrong body".

Over time I have come to have deeper sympathy for long time campaigners who are beyond tired of the "male" behaviour patterns of some TRA activists. However I am equally concerned that the moderate voices of those often labelled by TRAs as "transcum", are not being heard. I can only admire Feminist activists who have been speaking out in the wilderness for so long, sometimes at great personal cost. But equally I want to hear opposing voices. Without them we become an echo chamber, losing our grounding and our ability to resonate with the public.

Oh, and RatRolyPoly - when you said earlier "This really is the land of no debate!" I assume you were referring to your refusal yesterday to debate women and sport, an issue on which you've often professed expertise?