Yet another consultation to fill in - on trans policy in sport

[qumquat]

Just seen this on Twitter from the Sport and Recreation Alliance. Very leading questions as always but it's a quick one to fill in so please do!

www.sportandrecreation.org.uk/pages/consultation-in-focus

Sorry if that's not clicky I'm not sure how to make sure it is.

R0wantrees but they have to ask for permission before they can participate, what are those specific circumstances under which they would be refused?
I can imagine a coach giving a statement that they would not agree to it would be enough.
I see the concern that if we carry on down the self-id road, then it might become the fact that participation is presumed ok unless the club go out of their way to object, but at the moment permission is required before participation. And I still feel that it would be refused, most if not every time. I haven't found an example of where a transwoman is playing full contact in a competitive team yet.
Our coach used to play with us in training. I play mixed sex touch rugby - if height, physicality, weight were all equal then theoretically I wouldn't have too much of a problem, but it's a bit of a non-question as that would never happen.
We once got absolutely thrashed by over 100 points playing at Murrayfield, we were totally, completely outclassed. But it was a women's team. So I had no problem with it. (Plus we were on tour and perhaps not quite in match-fit state for various reasons...)

Just read the line about Canada. I also played rugby at UBC for a year - that policy definitely would have put a stop to that.

I can't find anything that states that mixed gender teams will be allowed for rugby in Canadian universities - that would also be contravening these guidelines from world rugby, which says the upper age limit should be 12...

playerwelfare.worldrugby.org/?documentid=117

And I still feel that it would be refused, most if not every time. I haven't found an example of where a transwoman is playing full contact in a competitive team yet.

Refusals are increasingly challenged by some TRAs.
It would have to be justified. In many cases, it would be very difficult to refuse based on the guidelines that have been published.

THe reasons for having seperate sex rubgy though are clear.

Have you followed Hannah Mouncey's case in Australia?

I will see if I can find the comment from MN poster about her experience in the UK.

You would think common sense would prevail, but in NZ that guy was able to switch to female weightlifting competition despite objections. Rugby just had a big outrage over Folau’s silly comment re gay people, and the All Blacks had the big inclusion ad with one of their sponsors. I would not be surprised in the current climate. I believe there was an issue in Australia and the transwoman was not allowed to play in the female team, was it rugby or league? So maybe it would depend on which country we are talking about, but I just don’t see too many men in sport willing to stand up and say this isn’t ok. Never mind that women are already disadvantaged in rugby, massively, boys and men who get the opportunity, training and money women don’t, will be able to just switch when they aren’t good enough to play against men.

I don’t know the full details but they also seem to be focusing on testosterone levels

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/10/hannah-mouncey-hits-out-at-afl-as-she-withdraws-from-aflw-draft

This wasn't the post I remember but similarly from 2016

"I play women's rugby and a friend of mine was called up to play army/raf/navy level. We play at a decent level but she is a better, stronger, fitter player than me. There was a transwoman playing against her and she said she had never, ever been hit so hard or found it so hard to hit someone as that person.
I've tried tackling men when playing causally in the park and can vouch it is another level of pain against their strength and sinewy, hard musculature."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2741485-Transwoman-Rugby-player-experienced-severe-bullying

Additional questions asked here with regards females who take testosterone (steroids) as part of their medical transition:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3350373-Transman-attacked-by-members-of-womens-rugby-team

I'm still on the side of common sense, perhaps naively!

I know for (almost) sure that the coaches (female AND male) of all the teams I have been involved in, and the parents, would speak up very loudly indeed if it looked like a man was going to join a women's team.

I'm aware of Hannah Mouncey, so I know it's not impossible, but I'm still clinging on to the idea that we can do it better over here!

I wouldn't object to playing against a trans man.

When I was a child I used to play netball. I was a small squirt - I started school a year early and was just before the cut off month anyway.

I was always up again a huge girl in the other school team - I came to her waist! She would squish me every time and I had no chance against her. Yeah, great fun being up against someone much larger and stronger.

I know for (almost) sure that the coaches (female AND male) of all the teams I have been involved in, and the parents, would speak up very loudly indeed if it looked like a man was going to join a women's team.

The policies only recognise gender identity. So yes a man can be excluded but a transwoman is not considered to be a man.
A transwoman is considered a woman, a transgirl a girl.

The policies only allow restricted participation in specific circumstances.

Competitive sport has been seperated by sex for specific physical reasons.

The use of steroids in sports has long established policies. As to the side-effects for those who take testosterone (regardless of sex)

* oops, apologies! Meant to write 'as too, the side effects..'

Done.

Well yes but this is why we all need to keep on shouting about the difference between 'sex' and 'gender' as we do. The RFU have accounted for people who have a GRC, so as not to create a loophole (in my interpretation...) From their policy...
^The RFU have a process in place to manage enquiries from, or about, people who have legally
and medically acquired a change in their birth gender. ^

It then becomes about how the whole subject is raised - if someone approaches a club and doesn't reveal that they have legally changed their gender, how would the Club then instigate the process? The onus I guess (if the person in question wasn't honest enough to broach it) would be for other players/coaches etc to step up and start the process, either by approaching the individual or by going straight to the RFU.
I am by nature highly averse to confrontation but this I think would be my chosen hill.

Along with the questionnaire, there is the pamphlet about inclusion of transgender people.

It's the one that was outsourced by the government and written by Gendered Intelligence. I have impressed upon my MP that this 'advice' ought to be withdrawn urgently because it is friggin dangerous batshit misleading.

It is confusing and unhelpful to amateur sports clubs, particularly ones that are trying to improve the participation of women and girls. It focusses on accommodating trans people, and other stakeholders can eff off.

I like Michael Conroy's tweet to the Sport and Rec organisation about mixed sex sports. He says it will result in the three Ds because mixed sex sports - disdvantages women; disincentivises women, and demotivates women. Exactly.

R0wantrees Thank you very much for your links and help in understanding. There’s so many issues going on at the moment! I feel annoyed enough that rugby isn’t offered to girls the same as it is for boys ( my daughters school has sports like lacrosse that nobody likes or plays outside of a few posh schools ) but imagine if they have to start playing against transwomen! Who would want to play rugby then? With all the tackle issues and concussion problems, surely they can see how bad it would get if they allowed this.

But we can’t be so sure that men in rugby would actually be against this. When the Folau controversy happened it provoked some opinions from men in professional rugby including one All Black tweeting support to a trans charity and saying something about everyone should be included regardless of their identity... oh and factually incorrect stuff on how Pacifika ( Polynesian cultures ) have always included and supported LGBT etc actually, Polynesian cultures inc Māori & Samoan have been traditionally homophobic and Faafaine were often forced to trans because they didn’t accept homosexuality & would rather they be a girl than be gay. But that’s another issue of appropriating indigenous cultures!

pennydrew is spot on with her final paragraph about Polynesian cultures. We have close friends in both Fiji and Vanuatu. Have visited them many times and stayed in their villages. Very religious people, a lot of casual homophobia, I've not witnessed anything violent but sadly teasing.

IMHO sports is what will peaktrans the men. Especially here in Australia where the majority are sports obsessed. My DH mentioned the Hannah Mouncey debacle he and a workmate (tradies) were discussing it and well.....best I don't repeat what was said. The mildest was Cheating Pr*ck.

The RFU have a process in place to manage enquiries from, or about, people who have legally and medically acquired a change in their birth gender

It's unlikely that this would stand up.
Can't ask for a GRC
The person would likely cite the Equalities Law interpretation that Gender reassignment protected characteristic includes those 'taking steps towards or intending to' etc
'Medically aquired' would mean?

I assume it meant hormone therapy etc.
Why can't the Panel ask to see a GRC?

I'd like to think that the statement from the Club would be the casting vote.
But then I also like to think that people would only pursue this course when they had the unanimous support of their Club & fellow players, so perhaps it wouldn't ever happen.
Like I say, I'm still naive about some things!

I assume it meant hormone therapy etc.
Why can't the Panel ask to see a GRC?

It may be interpreted to mean taking hormones, or taking hormone blockers. It may alternatively mean having facial plastic surgery, or having breast implants.
I doubt the RFU will be in a position to insist on much information. It is very personal.
How would they judge though? At what point does a male person become female for the purposes of fair competition?

80%+ of transwomen do not have surgery. Fairplay for Women have a detailed compliation of data etc here:
fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

The rules surrounding GRC protect an individual from intrusion into this.

The Scottish RFU policy seems to be a bit more in-depth, and states that Members and Clubs are able to report potential non-compliance, and anything less than full co-operation by anybody would bring on misconduct proceedings.
Fine in theory.
www.scottishrugby.org/sites/default/files/editor/images/sr18_transgender_policy.pdf

I wonder what ideas RatRolyPoly has for maintaining safety and fairness in competitive sports. They seem to be the only poster who has a different opinion - it would be good to hear how for example they think transwomen could participate in rugby.
In my opinion they should play on men's teams.

Rat's just here for the jam

I am male :)
I am an LTA tennis coach
I am an ABTO referee (that is the bod who wanders out onto court at Wimbledon to make decisions on the rules - then wanders back to the bar for a G&T - not the umpire bod who sits in the chair!)

I am very anti the ability for e.g. a boy / man to self-id as a girl / woman and play against them - it is phenomenally difficult to keep girls - esp. teenage girls - in the sport, this will basically kill girls tennis...

I have filled in the questionnaire as someone actively involved ( RatRolyPoly ) explaining exactly why it would be a stupid idea...

it is possible to have mixed sessions for children up to c. 12 years old - (often the earlier development of girls balances the strength of boys) but beyond that age it is inappropriate. There is mixed tennis (our club plays league mixed tennis every winter), but even then it would not be appropriate to have someone of one sex ID as the other sex and be allowed to play as that - the mixed sex works because it is balanced...

Everything in this current push seems to be about giving men the opportunity to walk in and take over women's spaces - and no advantage were women (transmen) wishing to do the same the other way...

I am not 'pro woman' or 'pro man' I am pro humans - and respect that it means that we are born differently, have different needs / different physiologies / etc. and therefore it is reasonable to give space for people to do things as mixed-sex, or as either sex on its own (and a trans woman is not and never will be a woman)

I am not on twitter - but has anyone tweeted Judy Murray to join in the discussion as a highly respected woman in tennis / Jamie & Andy as men in tennis...?

Filled in. My DD is sporty. I can imagine what DP would say if she had to compete against a male. (except she'd probs slaughter them). Anyways - have to get her from school to one of her sporty activities.