Girl guiding email to parents.

[Wildboar]

Has anyone seen the mass email sent out this evening? They haven’t acknowledged any concerns put to them. All they have stated that there is no risk and they won’t inform parents of transgender members due to data protection laws.

AmyRhodes, the basis of safeguarding is about removing as much risk as possible. If male bodied individuals, as a group, are a risk factor to girls, then it is basic safeguarding to eliminate that group in certain circumstances. It's got nothing to do with suggesting everyone is a pervert. It's about lessening risk. What are you not getting about that?

@CaptainKirkssparetupee

I've read the thread 👍

How about, before a GG residential a letter/email/conversation like this:

"I understand that you cannot disclose identities of any trans members. I would rather my daughter did not share a changing room or sleeping quarters. Can we discuss this?"

I imagine they will already have safeguards in place, the same way schools are already handling this issue very well. In fact, from my experience, it is the trans child and their parents that first insist on privacy.

"Ostracising an entire group for the terrible acts of a tiny minority - why can't we all agree that is wrong?"

It's a significant minority of men and boys who commit sex offences. There are loads of them all over the place.

Women and girls know this because we have experienced it.

I understand that you cannot disclose identities of any trans members. I would rather my daughter did not share a changing room or sleeping quarters. Can we discuss this?

The guidlines suggest the daughter will be reeducated.
Discussion shut down.

@titchy

I can insist what I want. Particularly as the law and the inclusion policies of most organisations agrees with me.

You're all for free speech here aren't you?

I think they are you think they aren't. I doubt either of us are going to change our minds.

Witty I am all ears, though. I actually haven’t stated I’ll never personally accept a trans person as the gender they say they are, that’s different. I’ll treat a trans person respectfully, I might even think about them in my mind as the gender they present, but in law, and deep down in my rational soul of course I don’t “believe” someone can change sex.

So how do you define ‘woman’ or ‘man’ so that you can believe it so wholeheartedly?

My DH feels in no way "ostracised" when he has to wait outside while I go to the ladies for a piss.

GG is sex segregated, this should not offend penis people.

But OH NOES penis people were offended and ratehr than going to scouts or woodcraft or similar, they have decided to tell little girls that being a girl is about hair and sparkles and can often include a big old dick. Then, changed GG to mixed sex BUT (why?) tried to pretend this isn't what happened.

OH if GG say they are mixed sex (truth) then the validation train goes off a cliff, doesn't it. Much boo hoos. What girls only thing to shut down next?

Anyway these days DH can come in with me and if anyone asks he can say "I'm a woman" job done easy peasy.

Maybe I'm not getting you @Elephantinacravat but I'm certainly answering your questions.

"Trans" denotes the transition from one gender to another, as I'm sure you know.

It's really not going to change my view that trans women are women.

""I understand that you cannot disclose identities of any trans members. I would rather my daughter did not share a changing room or sleeping quarters. Can we discuss this?"

I imagine they will already have safeguards in place, the same way schools are already handling this issue very well"

I imagine.

I IMAGINE.

Oh well that's fine then

How about ending all endemic violence regardless of who commits it?

This is a noble aim, but de-sexing violence doesn’t help achieve it in the slightest. Pretending that it is just something that ‘people’ do to other ‘people’ doesn’t help either victim or offender or society as a whole.

How do you define woman, Amy?

Not sure if anyone has asked.

Still waiting on Amy to explain what the 'trans' prefix on 'transwoman' actually signifies.

It's really not going to change my view that trans women are women.

What is the terminology then for becunted humans? Specifically the becunted ones?

Elephantinacravat

• yes those "factsheets" are contradictory and nonsensical.

And full of fucking awful stuff as well as stuff I wouldn't argue with.
The fucking awful stuff is there though.

"Trans" denotes the transition from one gender to another, as I'm sure you know.

Do you mean sex or gender here? Do you believe that humans can change sex?

With the term 'transwoman' what is the transwoman transitioning from?

If transwomen were actually women, they wouldnt be transwomen, they would just be women.

Can I be a transwoman? If not, why not?

"Still waiting on Amy to explain what the 'trans' prefix on 'transwoman' actually signifies."

It is a signifier of superiority to other sorts of women.
In the group "woman" >> which we know (!) includes black women, lesbian women, ANGRY women, trans women, Muslim women, etc

The trans woman is the type whose needs must be considered and met first and foremost, and the other types must defer to them.

OH OH and we have been told as well that women who do not believe that transwomen are literally female sex people,

are by definition not actually women themselves.

Feels very much like men are decided what a woman is and who is in and who is out, and the out ones are supposed to remove themselves from public life, to me. This is so NEW and REVOLUTIONARY!

Amy can you give us your definition of woman?

I can give you mine:

Woman = adult human female
Female = of the sex class which produces ova.

It is by these very definitions and nothing else that women have been oppressed for millenia. So don't tell me those things don't mean anything.

I am really interested to hear your definition.

According to stonewall umbrella
Most people in the world are trans

The problem we have is that the people who made up the umbrella, the people who said "most people have a strongly held internal sense of gender" >> never validated across people outside their group.

Most people in the world are gender nonconforming to some extent, in countries where gender role is heavily enforced, many will not fit and will feel uncomfortable.
In the UK many many women feel confined by gender role hence FEMINISM FFS
Most people I have spoken to and on MN on threads have NOT had a strongly held internal sense of gender ID. Trans people do by definition >> I mean people who are eg male and really strongly feel they should be female. Not the wishy washy porny "genderfluid" and all the rest of it types. Do no trans people generally have this feeling? They have assumed YES, extrapolating. The answer may well be NO. In which case the whole thing falls down.

Particularly as the law and the inclusion policies of most organisations agrees with me.

Except you're wrong. The law allows for single sex exemptions. Including where adults have acquired a GRC.

Still not answered whether you're happy to share a changing room with your FIL...

Your posts are full of 'I assume', 'I'm sure', 'I would think'. Not good enough where safeguarding is concerned.

@Elephantinacravat in a cravat.

I mean gender. I know you're hoping I'm a moron.

I've never felt the need to consider sex and gender separately, but yes, I know one refers to the sex organs you are born with and the other refers to a state of being or identity.

One of the things I find puzzling about these forums is why so many of you are so keen to label. Why is it important we all know the difference between sex and gender? Why do we all need to have the same definition of a woman? Many on here talk about the importance of free speech and free thought but you doggedly try to persuade anyone who will listen to share your definitions of these little words?

@NothingOnTellyAgain A woman to me is just another person. I don't need to look up their skirt or see their birth certificate. I'm not anyone's judge.

It's really not going to change my view that trans women are women

Well that will stunt your education a bit. As it's biologically impossible for a man to become a woman. He might feel like a woman, dress like a woman, live his life according to what he thinks a woman is (which is pretty much impossible because woman aren't all the same as eachother anyway). But what he cannot do, what he will never be able to do, is become a woman. And that really is that. Disappointing clearly for some. But that's life.

Do NON trans people generally have this feeling

That should say.

Back to point.

GG is mixed sex. They need to update their docs nad charitable status etc. they need to review their policies and not say "transgirls are girls so there needs to be no risk assessment". They could take a look at the scouts policy for eg which is much more balanced.

I am trying to think back to how I was as a teenager going through the Guide movement.

Not so much in Guides, but by the time I got to Rangers I was definitely sexually curious. I was very drawn to my female friends at that age (romantic crushes rather than lesbianism) but if I knew that one of my friends was actually biologically male, then I would have been intrigued. I think curiosity and intimacy between children is a definite risk factor.

For what it is worth, I also had my first vaguely sexual encounter during a Ranger trip aged 15. This was with an adult man when my friend and I were allowed out for a short time. I said yes to a kiss and then he took it further. I was not harmed and it was very mild/low key, but he was definitely trying to seek further contact. These days it would probably be called grooming. This happened in less than 45 minutes of unsupervised time.

Also, don’t people at HQ think that volunteer leaders have enough to do keeping girls safe from existing risks (see above!) without adding another layer?

@titchy

No, and he'd feel just as uncomfortable as me!