Girlguiding Issue coming up Good Morning Britain

[WarmWishes]

About to be discussed 7.40am. Suzzanah Reeves & Piers Morgan

And when I say young girls I am not talking about the bepenised vvariety(or boys) that bespin is so bothered about. They have issues, that needs sorting BUT GG is NOT the place to be doing it and neither is my dd the one to be supporting this deceit. When my DD goes to GG, she does so for her own good, to be herself away from the pesky, pestering boys.

Ereshkigal all your arguments are simply based on your perspective and none on any of the evidence or experiances of those who know exactly what the risks are. its a fixed view You see, the whole essence of risk assessment is that we assess for the worst case actually happening. We don't say 'We can put boys who say they're girls in with girls to sleep, shower, etc because Bespin and Susie Green reckon there's no chance of them ever abusing that..'

We are not just talk about children, though. The policy allows male transpeople of any age access to girls spaces without parental or the girls consent.

I worry that girls are being stopped from mentioning and discussing the completely obvious. The boys identifying as transgirls and any transwomen leaders will of course be obvious as being male to the girls. Yet everyone will be pretending they are female. No discussion. No conversations about ways good and bad we might behave towards a male who is presenting as female? Where our boundaries lie? How to have boundaries without bigotry? Boys can wear skirts, etc. How the girls feel? Questions they might want to ask the transperson and which of those are appropriate / inappropriate? It is such a bad message to send to young girls that if a male says he wants, he needs, he feels then she isn't even allowed to acknowledge what's happening never mind object or question.

A lot of it for me is the ignoring of the feelings of girls and their privacy and dignity. I know that as a 13 year old I would have been uncomfortable with a male bodied person in my tent at guide camp. I know this for a fact because of other experiences I had at that age (not bad experiences, I just know how I felt about boys at that time).

These parents who say 'well my daughter wouldn't be uncomfortable with it because I have raised her not to be a bigot' need to take a long hard look at themselves and think about what they are teaching their daughters about their own boundaries. If you are not comfortable, you are not comfortable, and if your parents have made you feel like a 'bigot' for having those feelings then they are the ones who are failing.

The fact that male humans carry out the vast majority of sexual assaults is just, like, an individual perspective, you know? Why can't we talk about how girls do it too and also some girls have cocks and if everyone would just take their brains out and drop them in the recycling bin we could really make some progress on this whole inclusiveness thing.

Kate Hoey and Frank Field are two of the Labour politicians I most admire, so I don't think it's right to assume her input will be negative.

Chattylion
Yes, pisstaking boys will try to self identify into girls tents. And that is just one group, there are many more groups who are a threat to girls. Why on earth does any of the current rules need to be changed anyway? The current system isn't perfect but it isn't broke

Need more sleep I am. talking about children who abuse children not adults, adults do indeed have a number of factors infulanceing there behaviours.

Bespin, read my post. I mentioned two conviced child sex offenders, one a teenager. I cannot go into more detail. However after attending a lot of sports events and meeting people with similar safeguarding responsibilities in other clubs, I am certain that robust policies and constant vigilence is required. I have no doubt that someone working in a school, and say, hiring peripatetic sports coaches and music teachers, would say similar.

And I have no idea why GGs would think that Pips Bunce would be a better consultee on safeguarding policies (for that is what they are) than someone undertaking a similar role in the GG.

This whole thing is so muddled now (in the minds of TRAs and many of the public that is) - so that many conversations go like this:

"It isn't safe to have boys in with girls"
"But these "boys" are not boys. They ARE girls."

"They have male bodies."
"That doesn't mean they're boys! How bigoted ARE you? You need to educate yourself!"
"But people with male bodies, however they identify, can get girls pregnant."
"You really are a bigot aren't you. Now you're acting like trans people are all rapists!"
"But my daughter doesn't want to get undressed in front of male-bodied people.."

[see how quickly you have to stop using the word 'boys', for clarity, and to pre-empt the 'but they ARE girls' chant. Language is being successfully redefined...]

"Well, she'll have to get over herself and her bigoted views."
"Look, it's not personal - she wouldn't want to get undressed in front of her dad, her uncle, Prince William.."
"There will be LESBIAN girls in the Guides you know, watching your daughter undress! Do you want them thrown out too?"
"Of course not - they're girls, female.."
"It's INCREDIBLY bigoted to say 'girls are females...' You know what you remind me of? one of those bigots from the old days who used to object to gay people. This is exactly the same!"

The same old arguments come up every time (see the @ GMB twitter thread this morning for example!) and the TRAs seem to think they've triumphantly scored with points such as these... and in a way they have - they obfuscate what is really, really simple - that humans come (largely) in one of two sexual types, and we segregate for privacy and dignity on the grounds of SEX. I should imagine this is confusing to a lot of the public who keep hearing they are BIGOTS if they so much as ask a question around the ideology.

I think any woman who says that she hasn't raised her daughter to be a bigot in regards to undressing in front of male bodied people regardless of how they identify should really think this through the next time they are using a changing room and think about how they would feel if a man walked in whilst they were undressed. Would they cover up? Would they call staff for help to say a man is in there, or would they assume that although he looks like a man, he really might feel like a women on the inside.

A PP mentioned Woodcraft Folk. If your child attends, worth a look at their Transgender Inclusion Statement which contains the Genderbread Person diagram, phrases like 'assigned sex at birth' etc etc and includes for example

• It is the young person’s legal right to use the toilets of their choice
• Always be led by the preferences of the young person, around which facilities they feel most comfortable and safe using.

Further info at the back of the doc directs people to:
Gender Trust
NHS Live Well
GIRES: Gender Identity Research and Education Society
Mermaids
Gendered Intelligence:
Trans Media watch:
Allsorts Youth: Brighton based youth project
Action for Trans Health:

It is the young person’s legal right to use the toilets of their choice That's a lie - isn''t it?

Apples: That's a nice summary of the argument. And it's all an attempt to obfuscate something quite simple, which is that teenage boys shouldn't be allowed to share a tent - or shower facilities, or changing rooms - with teenage girls.

Timelady, who is assuming that Kate Hoey's input is negative.

What is happening is that an odd bunch of people have been willing to stick their heads above the parapet (Richard Littlejohn, Sarah Vine, Kate Hoey, David Davis MP etc along with left leaning Radfems and some sensible GG people), perhaps because they are willing to say what they think and have a history of doing so. This issue is not about right wing or left wing, but about common sennse, and there is every reason to belive that 80% of the population or more, agree. It is babysteps. First the Mail and Spectator cover it, then the Times. Who knows we may yet get some sensible reporting from the BBC and Guardian.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/30/labour-kate-hoey-deselect-vauxhall-mp-independent-thinker-expel

Kate Hoey is a former games teacher, and has a strong sports policy background. She was a former Sports Minister. She will be speaking up with personal views, knowledge and experience. People across the political spectrum wil take note. Another babystep but a helpful one.

VickyEadie - Yes, it's a lie!

That's a lie - isn''t it?

Yes. It's illegal not to have sex segregated toilets in schools. Because...

I am. talking about children who abuse children

...those children who abuse children are overwhelmingly boys who abuse girls.

Cheers Gulag

Am not very used to Twitter!

@bespin although trauma plays a part in some cases, its not the case for all. Rather than throw out glib excuses, here's a published paper from the US criminal justice programme. They recorded 31% percent of offenders having experienced childhood abuse. So less than half. Many men abuse because they can, and many have been abused and not perpetuated that violence on. www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=72986

Fae is likely to be very rattled by Lisa Muggeridge's recent video. A discredited 'expert' seeing opportunities (financial and self-promotional) disappearing before their eyes.

My support of Kate Hoey was in response to the comment on p6 from Ihaventgottimeforthis:

^I absolutely can't bear Kate Hoey, I don't think she will do any favours in this debate in terms of winning over the majority.
She's one of Nigel Farage's cheerleaders and in my opinion is a disgrace as a Labour MP. I don't think she has either intelligence or integrity.^

Many men abuse because they can

And being allowed free access to women and girls is a gift to such men, isn't it?

Oooh! I can paragraph again!

Will someone who thinks that girls should be required to undress etc in front of boys please explain why changing rooms exist at all. Shouldn't girls just undress wherever they happen to be in front of all passers-by?

We used to change in the classroom when I was 4-5 so what would be wrong with a 16yo girl doing the same thing? Surely you don't think all their classmates and male teachers are rapists?

It would make things easier at home for dad too (and male visitors) if the bathroom door was never closed when a teenage daughter was taking a bath.

If that doesn't sound like a good idea then you need to rethink your original position.

I completely disagree with Kate Hoey on Brexit.
I completely agree with her on this.
It's not unusual to agree with people on some issues and disagree with them on others.

LastTrainEast

Yes!