Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding Issue coming up Good Morning Britain

411 replies

WarmWishes · 25/09/2018 07:28

About to be discussed 7.40am. Suzzanah Reeves & Piers Morgan

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
SossidgeRoll · 25/09/2018 19:34

Forgive me - this is a genuine question as this is new territory for me. I’ve appreciated the feminism page and feel I’m learning from your views - especially around self ID. However, I feel uncomfortable about excluding children/young people from a brilliant and worthwhile organisation. Re: the GG email: Aren’t they saying that they look at individuals. So if a trans girl joined a troupe and there was an overnight then it (sleeping arrangements, showers etc) would be assessed and considered on a case by case basis. My point being that being trans doesn’t make people more of a risk?

Needmoresleep · 25/09/2018 19:35

Yes. Did the survey ask guides what they want to happen to trans boys, and the girls replied that they wanted to exclude them....I doubt it.

Batteriesallgone · 25/09/2018 19:38

Trans isn’t more of a risk than what? A girl?

Two vulvas can’t make a pregnancy.

Penises are a risk.

Chocolala · 25/09/2018 19:38

sossidge it only gets assessed from the perspective of the trans girl. Those born female are not to be consulted, and are not to be permitted to say ‘no, we don’t want someone with a penis in our tent/showers/etc’

Needmoresleep · 25/09/2018 19:39

Sossidge, the next time you go swimming would you be content sharing the changing room with a naked male bodied person? (All three pools I use have communal female changing rooms.) Would your 14 year old self feel the same way?

And if so, are you certain that all 14 year old girls, including those from religious minorities, will be equally at ease.

LangCleg · 25/09/2018 19:40

Forgive me - this is a genuine question as this is new territory for me. I’ve appreciated the feminism page and feel I’m learning from your views - especially around self ID. However, I feel uncomfortable about excluding children/young people from a brilliant and worthwhile organisation. Re: the GG email: Aren’t they saying that they look at individuals. So if a trans girl joined a troupe and there was an overnight then it (sleeping arrangements, showers etc) would be assessed and considered on a case by case basis. My point being that being trans doesn’t make people more of a risk?

If you're new to this, why not try reading the posts instead of asking why things are being said that aren't being said?

It might help.

Chocolala · 25/09/2018 19:42

And no, being trans doesn’t automatically make you more of a risk. But we have sex segregation for a reason (quite a few in fact). GG is doing the equivalent of sticking its fingers in its ears because it clearly got swept up in the ‘lets be inclusive’ circus without actually referring back to the reasons that underpin safeguarding practices and asking the simple question of whether they still apply.

OvaHere · 25/09/2018 19:43

sossidge what would be the point of a case by case basis? All transgirls under 18 will have male genitals.

The universal safeguarding rule is that males and females over 10 do not share facilities or sleeping arrangements.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/09/2018 19:44

My point being that being trans doesn’t make people more of a risk?

It’s the fact that they are male that creates the risk.

  1. If that person is a fifteen year old boy they pose risks that a fifteen year old girl wouldn’t. Two fifteen year old girls can’t get each other pregnant.
  1. It’s a much wider problem than just that one 15 year old boy. Firstly all girl atmospheres benefit girls. Secondly Male (not talking about trans, I’m talking men) predators will exploit these loopholes. Men with predatory behaviours spend years getting into positions of trust - just look at that awful case in the USA with the gymnastics team doctor. So by accepting males they will remove the all female composition which in and of itself was a factor in safety. Thirdly, many Muslim and other religion holding girls will now be unable to join.

Guides needs to be single sex. I imagine that you’re a decent person, who wouldn’t want to upset an individual boy who felt they were female and I understand that. It’s sort of the default when you’re decent to expect that others are too. But this is an issue where safeguarding will be eroded if the single sex status is lost.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/09/2018 19:46

Asking children what they think / want is all well and good.

Exactly. I asked my kid what he wanted for tea and the answer was ‘chocolate.’ Kids should have an age appropriate voice, of course they should, but our role as adults is to see, understand and mitigate risks that they don’t even perceive.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 25/09/2018 19:50

they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Who does? Safeguarding is not discriminatory. The right of girls to spaces free of boys is not discriminatory - you took that one to court yourselves! The right of females to not have to change, shower, toilet or sleep in the sight of males is not discriminatory. Females having boundaries and saying no is not discriminatory.

What exactly are you calling discriminatory in this? People not willing to overlook safeguarding in some loopy attempt to be 'kind'?

we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

If you'd asked them another highly leading question like do you feel comfortable getting undressed and taking a shower in front of a boy you probably would have got a high response too, and it wouldn't have been 'yes'. Any idiot can ask weighted, leading questions and get the replies they want.

Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

And contrary to popular opinion, I fly a vacuum cleaner and not a broomstick. I can be see airborne over Wigham as I type.

titchy · 25/09/2018 19:58

So if a trans girl joined a troupe and there was an overnight then it (sleeping arrangements, showers etc) would be assessed and considered on a case by case basis.

The guidance is ONLY from the point of view of how comfortable the trans member feels. It refers to asking whether they'd prefer to share a tent, or sleep in a tent by themselves for example. At no point are the biological girls, or their parents, asked their opinion or for their permission.

While no-one is claiming that trans-girls are sexual predators, many many girls just don't want to get their clothes off in front of someone with a male body - sometimes for religious reasons, sometimes because they've been the victim of abuse, and often just because they feel uncomfortable.

titchy · 25/09/2018 20:03

Whilst I am not the thread police, can I please make posters aware that there may well be many new visitors to these pages, having just received a rather oblique email from GGUK. Maybe just for the next day or so we can give new posters the benefit of the doubt and explain gently, rather than accuse of plopping.

Maybe someone can post a link to thread that explains?

TimeLady · 25/09/2018 20:08

Stephen Whittle (on MN) said how much they appreciated the value of Guides when they were a young woman with gender issues. Denying it to similar young women now seems strange..

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 25/09/2018 20:46

Stephen Whittle (on MN) said how much they appreciated the value of Guides when they were a young woman with gender issues. Denying it to similar young women now seems strange..

Isn't that called 'pulling up the ladder behind you'?

IceRebel · 25/09/2018 20:50

there may well be many new visitors to these pages, having just received a rather oblique email from GGUK.

I can't wait for the parents in my group to ask me what the random email was all about, as I know the vast majority have (until this evening) no idea about the situation.

TimeLady · 25/09/2018 21:07

Isn't that called 'pulling up the ladder behind you'?

Exactly. And it tells you all you need to know about Stephen Whittle.

TimeLady · 25/09/2018 21:08

I can't wait for the parents in my group to ask me what the random email was all about, as I know the vast majority have (until this evening) no idea about the situation.

The silver lining Grin Do let us know their reaction when you explain.

IceRebel · 25/09/2018 21:11

Haha I will do @timelady, at least i'll be able to give a simple explanation, unlike the email.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 25/09/2018 21:14

Haha I will do timelady, at least i'll be able to give a simple explanation, unlike the email.

I bet it will read a bit like 'the lady protests too much' to people who are new to it all.

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/09/2018 21:16

What you need to ask is this:

As a parent, would you be happy for your girl to share her intimate spaces with boys or adult men without you knowing, and in an atmosphere where she would be shamed as a bigot for speaking out if she felt uncomfortable getting naked around a member of the opposite sex?

If the answer is NO, then ask yourself why you think the magic fairy dust called "trans" makes a difference to the actual scenario? The bodies involved are exactly the same. It's a mixed-sex versus single-sex question, and it's about respecting the dignity, safety, boundaries and comfort of girls.

Additionally, the only evidence we have is that even fully transitioned trans women still retain the male pattern of criminality. In other words, the data suggest they need to be risk assessed as a male.

Self-ID means exactly what it says on the tin - ANYONE, for any reason, at any time, can make the declaration and there is really no way for you to prove or disprove what they say.

We have also seen warnings from experts that falsely claiming to be transgender (enabled by Self-ID) is a terrible loophole for dangerous criminals to exploit, because it means they have easier access to the vulnerable population they wish to harm.

British Psychological Society evidence to the government:

Conversely, psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:

· As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;

· As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);

· Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).

· In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

Such strategies in no way affect risk and indeed may increase it.

Some people falsely believe that taking oestrogen and blocking androgen in males will reduce risk of offending, however this is not necessarily the case.

Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend.

An actual paedophile has transitioned to become a "woman." This is a real life case that's already happened. How do we stop these criminals from exploiting self-ID? www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/

So no. This is not a simple question. Of course trans people should be safe from harm and free to participate in public life without harassment or discrimination. Nobody thinks trans people are all criminals or rapists, although I personally really do worry that self-ID allows dangerous men to claim to be trans in order to hurt people which will actually harm the reputation of trans people in the long run if we cannot stop the psychopaths from doing this.

What feminists are saying is that every single trans girl/woman is a MALE, and MALES as a group committed 99% of all rapes and assaults by penetration in 2017. This is why we have single-sex spaces. Not because we think all males are evil, but this is the best system to keep females safe. And, frankly, most males want their own single-sex spaces also.

The word "trans" does not mean we throw basic principles out the window, and give any old male who says they are a woman free access to spaces where children and women are vulnerable. "Trans" does not mean we deny all basic truths like biology exists and it matters.

"Trans" does not mean that humans can change sex.

"Trans" is not a magic spell that changes reality, unfortunately. And the "trans" person is not the only important stakeholder here. We have to be able to look at this objectively and practically.

Charliethefeminist · 25/09/2018 21:31

PSA?

ThePonderer · 25/09/2018 22:33

After all ... we are talking about children so it’s hard to justify a position that excludes anyone

But that's the founding principle of the Girl Guides, to exclude males and promote the interests of girls. Clue is in the name.

OvaHere · 25/09/2018 22:36

Well they'll be excluding all the Muslim and Jewish girls and the girls who identify as something other than girls.

They will all have to be managed out so as not to upset the males.

iMum · 26/09/2018 08:02

It seem that there is some difficulty with accepting that trans girls are girls-in their head and heart. In their body they are still boys.
That's not being unkind or transphobic that's being totally factual.

While we segregated based on bodies we should still do so right?

Can someone very articulate explain how the trans debate being piggybacked onto the gay rights debate is disingenuous-I know it is-I want to be able to get that across when asked.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.