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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding Issue coming up Good Morning Britain

411 replies

WarmWishes · 25/09/2018 07:28

About to be discussed 7.40am. Suzzanah Reeves & Piers Morgan

OP posts:
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9
Knicknackpaddyflak · 25/09/2018 17:33

No children are never inherently abusive we make them like that they are often victims of neglect and trauma or exposed to a society where sexualisation is becoming the norm I you wish to address abusive young poeple then I would start there.

Would you? Most professionals in the field would start from the point of view that robust, flawless safeguarding procedure and strong boundaries are the first step to protecting children, and the more vulnerable the child the stronger those boundaries and safeguarding procedures need to be. Those children need to feel safe and be kept safe if they're going to recover.

Ambitions to fix society are lovely, bring on the ideas and campaigns, but until no children are abused, traumatised or sexualised how about we carry on with strong, uncompromised safeguarding and prioritise immediate safety instead of idealism?

seafret · 25/09/2018 18:13

I have been one to say how we must protect young boys from harm and consider how the abusive past of some males affects/results in their own offending or abusive behaviour, but that has NOTHING to do with letting boys and men into the GG.

Surely those confused boys would be much better served in the mixed Scouts where they can see both sexes interacting together, and hopefully find good roles models of both sexes, and where the presence of women and girls actually makes the Scouts a safer place for boys because of the increased safeguarding that needs to take place, and the presence and scrutiny of women to help enforce it.

The reverse is true when men infiltrate women's spaces and organisations - it hurts women and girls.

sayhelloandwavegoodbye · 25/09/2018 18:16

GG have just emailed me this:

A message to all our members, parents and carers

Our response to the media attention to our Equality and Diversity policy

In the last few days you may have seen that Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy has been criticised in the media, with accusations that our inclusion of trans members puts girls at risk. It does not.

The safety, wellbeing and happiness of our members is at the heart of everything we do in Girlguiding and has been for over 100 years.

We are therefore writing to all our members and parents of our young members to set the record straight. Keeping girls, young women and our adult volunteers safe is our number one priority. We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone and underpin everything volunteers and girls do in guiding. We are deeply saddened that anyone would suggest that we would knowingly put our young members at risk.

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Every individual and group is different, so we train and support our volunteers to assess every situation - balancing the needs of all our members, both girls and adults, so everyone can enjoy their guiding experience in a way they feel comfortable with. Our universal policies ensure that all volunteers are required to safeguard and assess risk for all activities on a case by case basis to comply with those policies and procedures.

We’ve been responding directly to practical questions from volunteers and parents about how we can balance the needs of all our members, and we are always happy to offer bespoke support to any leader or parent, including on transgender inclusion.

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Girlguiding’s policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct ensure that all our volunteers understand their roles and responsibilities to treat others with respect, keep everyone safe, and deliver great experiences for girls and young women.

We therefore take breaches of our policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct very seriously.

Following a number of complaints about two individuals, an independent investigation concluded that both had breached our Volunteer Code of Conduct and our Social Media policy because they did not, and indicated that they were not willing to, follow Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy and actively encouraged others to do the same. We are always willing to listen to feedback about our policies, and remain open to reviewing them wherever necessary.

We will always investigate any breaches of our Volunteer Code of Conduct and related policies. While withdrawal of membership is a last resort for us, our policies are designed to protect our girls and young women. Refusing to comply with our policies is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the circumstances meant that we had no choice but to withdraw these individuals’ membership. This decision was not based on their personal views, but on the way they conducted themselves.

We have been asked to provide further details on these specific disciplinary cases but it would be inappropriate to comment further as the individuals in question have a right to appeal.

We’ve tried to avoid being drawn into the highly politicised, emotive and often aggressive debate around transgender inclusion. Girlguiding is not a transgender campaign group, we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way.

We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance. Under the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 the sharing of personal data of children is afforded greater protection, so we take great care to uphold confidentiality. Any information about an individual’s transgender history is treated in line with the Data Protection Act 2018/General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR) and Girlguiding’s Data Protection policy.

It hasn’t been easy to hear criticism of our organisation and of the wider Girlguiding family especially when much of it is inaccurate, aggressive and counter to the values we hold dear.

We are incredibly proud of our volunteers and the young people in our movement who sensitively and positively support diversity of all kinds, including our transgender members, as part of their groups. We would like to thank each and every one of our 109,000 volunteers who, week in and week out, offer a safe space for girls and young women to have fun, learn new skills, explore their own identity and beliefs, and to be proud of who they are.

Amidst all the noise we try to remain focused on the children and young people that we support. We call ourselves a movement because we change with the times, whilst staying focused on our core values and purpose, and we will continue to do just that.

Amanda Medler

Chief Guide

Ruth Marvel

Acting Chief Executive

OvaHere · 25/09/2018 18:22

I'm sorry but that says fuck all. Especially about safeguarding.

As for asking girls about inclusivity of course they will say yes but how many actually understand the tension between safeguarding and trans ideology? How many of those girls truly understand what is being asked of them in reality?

Boo hoo they were criticised and it hurt their feelings. Good.

IAmLurkacus · 25/09/2018 18:23

Did Susie Green write that? Fuck Off girl guides. The fact they’ve written ‘young people’ when they should’ve written girls tells me all I need to know about them. They really can fuck off.

hasopinionswilltravel · 25/09/2018 18:24

Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Being in possession of a penis means a person needs to be treated differently in terms of safeguarding form those without penises.

Guides understand that as far as boys and men go. There is no assurance here that they understand that for transwomen and transgirls.

AdventuringThroughLife · 25/09/2018 18:24

Ive just had that email and replied to it though I think it just gets written off if it doesn't conform to their idea of truth.

Its absolutely barking :( Boys in a girls sleepover/organisation isnt a safeguarding risk?? And I dont think they should discriminate against transgender people who are female sex but helping them explore their identity. But letting boys in!?!?!
Its obviously from the starting position that male bodied children can and should live as girls...

AbsintheFriends · 25/09/2018 18:25

we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way

Looks like they've already erased the girls from girlguiding.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 25/09/2018 18:26

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

That's not the same as girls being happy about male transperson (child or adult) being present when they are undressing or sleeping.

Also, I noticed by the end of the statement they stopped talking about girls and moved on to talk about children and young people.

seafret · 25/09/2018 18:27

FFS

Well there you have it. Midway down - they are "a young people's organisation". Not a girl's organisation. They should name change to Young People Guides then. grr.

And "Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person".

WRONG. 'transgender' does not only mean being gender dysphoric - cross dressing is included as being trans and is a paraphilia linked with a higher incidence of other paraphilias and mental/ behaviourl disorders. see FPFW facts linked to earlier.

WRONG - in a sex offender (caught or undetected) identity issues indicate a higher risk - see Prof Coid's letter (a professor of Forensic Psychiatry)

LangCleg · 25/09/2018 18:27

Yeah, fuck off Amanda and Ruth.

I would not allow my child anywhere near your organisation which has more safeguarding failures than I could shake a stick at.

I would not volunteer for your organisation - I would have to go against the most obvious of safeguarding frameworks and I would be concerned about personal liability, since it is clear you do not have anyone's back but your own.

UnderHerEye · 25/09/2018 18:27

Amidst all the noise we try to remain focused on the children and young people that we support.

Interesting use of language, no mention of girls in their closing paragraph, says it all really.

AdventuringThroughLife · 25/09/2018 18:28

What makes them distinctive if it isnt for girls any longer? Knitting and flower arranging and dresses and make up!? I wanted my girls to move away from.gender norms.

UnderHerEye · 25/09/2018 18:28

Ah so we all noticed then!

BiologyMatters · 25/09/2018 18:28

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Well i don't think people should be discriminated against for being transgender either. But saying a male can't go into a female space because they're not female is not discrimination.

Needmoresleep · 25/09/2018 18:28

It’s not just about safeguarding. Don’t 15 year old girls have a right to choose not to share sleeping accommodation or showers with male bodied peers in a girls organisation.

And if not why not?

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 25/09/2018 18:30

God they seem thick.

Maybe they should do a parents survey to get a bit of feed back on the popularity of teenage penis in their daughter's tents.

JessicaJonesJacket · 25/09/2018 18:33

The substitution of girls and women for young people is very telling. As is their refusal to admit they are not a single-sex organisation any longer. Even if you ignore all the safeguarding concerns; and the blatant lie that confidentiality is tied to data protection (when their policy predates the GDPR legislation) they are still fudging whether they are single sex or single gender.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 25/09/2018 18:33

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

I hope they are not using that survey as consent.

FloralBunting · 25/09/2018 18:35

Zutt, I think that's exactly what they are doing.

OvaHere · 25/09/2018 18:35

They need to pushed to now describe themselves accurately in all their literature as a mixed sex organisation that doesn't separate sleeping and showering facilities whilst on camps.

FermatsTheorem · 25/09/2018 18:36

That e-mail!

913 words (just pasted into word to check) saying nothing.

When actually what parents want is a single word answer - "yes" or "no" to the question "can you promise that children with vulvas will be separated from children with penises in overnight accommodation, changing rooms and shower facilities while in your care?"

It is not a hard question. It does not require 913 words to answer it. It just requires one word. One truthful word.

If the answer is "yes" then we can all stop worrying.

If the answer is "no" then parents can decide whether or not to vote with their feet.

DereksSexyPyjamas · 25/09/2018 18:37

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

The deliberate and wilful misinterpretation here is infuriating. Is it more of a safeguarding risk to let male-bodied individuals share a room with females, than to have a room that's all female? This isn't about transgender people being more of a risk; it's about MALE-bodied individuals being more of a risk. But they know that, of course, and are deliberately obfuscating the issue. The lack of concern for girls is heart-breaking, especially knowing the stats on sexual assault in schools. I can't say this surprises me though.

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/09/2018 18:37

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

I think you will find that if you surveyed anyone on this board they will say that they do not want transgender people discriminated against. BUT this does not mean that we pretend sex is not real or that material reality doesn't exist or are blind to the obvious safeguarding risks involved in mixing males/females.

We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

But not women. Not mothers or fathers. You didn't ask any experts in structural analysis of male violence against girls, otherwise known as actual feminists... You didn't think about girl's needs, boundaries or how they will feel comfortable about speaking up if they have concerns about sharing the space they are vulnerable in if it is supposed to be male-free.
And let's be clear - the high-profile trans organisations are almost all lobby/pressure groups. They do not take into account competing interests, seem to have very little oversight, and the policies they want are increasingly crossing the line for all common sense and safeguarding principles.

FloralBunting · 25/09/2018 18:39

"We asked the girls of the organization, 'Do you want to be kind to everyone and include them?' because we knew that their socialization would lead them to give a positive answer. This has given us carte blanche to completely ignore safeguarding risks because a majority of the girls told us they didn't mind if we did."

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