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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

The term "men in dresses"

358 replies

AuntMsVanillaRose · 12/09/2018 08:22

Trans-excluders like to say that they're absolutely fine with boys who don't fit in with gender stereotypes. And I, not one of you, am fine with children not fitting gender stereotypes. But I don't think that is true of all of you. Why is "man in a dress" used as an insult by so many of you?

OP posts:
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raisinsraisins · 12/09/2018 09:59

I disagree. I didn’t report the thread, but it did not show Mumsnet in a good light. Don’t really want the media etc to see a thread that has bullying by silencing and ignoring, by mumsnetters.

FourFriedChickensDryWhiteToast · 12/09/2018 10:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

UpstartCrow · 12/09/2018 10:01

You're ok with it when its women who need women only spaces and services.

Nicknamesalltaken · 12/09/2018 10:03

The breakfast nonsense was just that. It didn’t really get in the way, it just looked a bit silly.

No need to delete any of it. Left up it would have done little more than caused an eye roll. Taken down, it looks far worse.

Really @MNHQ where’s your common sense gone? 🙄

PositivelyPERF · 12/09/2018 10:04

Don’t really want the media etc to see a thread that has bullying by silencing and ignoring, by mumsnetters.

Seriously! Did we tell the OP to stop talking or grab their iPad/phone and run off with it? Talk about an over reaction.

FloralBunting · 12/09/2018 10:05

I'm getting to the point of past caring at this stage, tbh. I'll abide by obstructionist rules about what terms I can use, and I'm not going to be obnoxious for the sake of it, but if other women are fed up of the mendacious goadiness and choose to respond in a manner that makes them come across to some as misbehaving women, I'm not really inclined to tell them off.

As it happens, I'm ok with discussing the broader point brought up by the OP, because I think it reveals a lot more about their prejudices than anyone else's, but if other women feel they want to respond differently and couldn't care less what pursed lips it may produce, I'm ok with that.

Noqont · 12/09/2018 10:06

Nicky wire in a dress. Gorgeous. (And male).

The term "men in dresses"
Fairenuff · 12/09/2018 10:07

It's not fair to delete posts when posters are not breaking any rules. How are we supposed to know in advance if a post is going to be deleted for a bit of 'banter'.

It would have been better to put a warning on the thread to say any more breakfast chat and the posts will go. At least posters then have a chance to stop. Seems a bit of a snowflake reaction.

Hurrumph

OP's not coming back to the thread anyway.

PositivelyPERF · 12/09/2018 10:07

just be nice ladies and everything will be ok. 🙄

SittingAround1 · 12/09/2018 10:08

We have deleted the breakfast chit chat

Quite rightly too, it was making me hungry and it's too early for lunch.

Now back to men in dresses. Check out J.W Anderson's 2013 Fall/Winter collection

dolorsit · 12/09/2018 10:08

Aww c'mon @HopeMumsnet it is obvious that the op is here to goad and/or grab screenshots.

They posted referring to posters here as trans excluders, then asked why we always use "men in dresses" despite the fact phrase is rarely used. (34 times on the boards according to one user)

Then you delete breakfast chat leaving deletion messages that I have no doubt will at some point be screen shot as evidence of transphobia as has happened before.

ChilliJamandAvocado · 12/09/2018 10:09

The putting on of a dress (or trousers) doesn't change the fundamental ontological category of being a man or a woman though. They are merely superficial social codes to signify femininity or masculinity, and of course are subject to variation, shift and reversal across time periods and geographical cultures. Sex is immutable.

(NC for posterity of my idea)

Dragoncake · 12/09/2018 10:11

Got it.

Bowie looks stunning in that photo.

PositivelyPERF · 12/09/2018 10:12

Two more ‘men in dresses’. Fucking gorgeous.

The term "men in dresses"
BettyDuMonde · 12/09/2018 10:12

This thread is too holey to read now but I bloody love men in dresses (growing up in indie/alternative goth culture in the 70s/80s all the hot men wore frocks, K. Cobain being a particular fave).

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 12/09/2018 10:14

Wearing dresses or trousers is not some kind of innate, genetic requirement of being born female, it is an outcome of a particular form of social history which polices women's bodies.

Dresses were designed to be both modest, so restricting women's sexual expression, and limit their capacity to be active and participate. Women being women, never let that stop them; Freya Stark climbed mountains in skirts.

But there's nothing inherently female in wearing clothing which is one tube instead of two. Other cultures are less interested in gender-coding tubes of fabric. Masai men, for example, traditionally wear bright, red robes to do manly things like hunting lions.

In Western culture, men in dresses are usually taking the piss - frocking up is popular with drunk young men, because it's a daring foray into the forbidden realm of femaleness. But of course, after the naughty thrill, they pull on their trousers in the morning and go back to their privilege.

Men generally don't wear dresses because they like a nice print or enjoy the waft of fresh air around their parts; they wear them either to be a bit shocking (but knowing that their privilege is just a pair of pants away), or because they are performing femininity. For them womanhood is a performance made up of stereotypes; dresses, make-up, hair-flicking, coy gestures and the rest.

If men take to dresses in droves, I don't care - I'm sure many of them would be more comfortable (and at last we'd get clothes with decent pockets). But as it stands, men in dresses are treating the reality of being born a woman as if it were no more complex than a bit of lippy and a sequinned sheath.

Wearing a dress because you like it is one thing, go for it blokes. But wearing a dress because their feeling of being a woman is so restrictive, they can't see past representations of "femininity"? Yeah, fuck off.

BettyDuMonde · 12/09/2018 10:15

Mmmm. Evan Dando.

Now THAT was a beautiful man in a dress.

BettyDuMonde · 12/09/2018 10:22

A more up to date man in a dress, from this year’s Emmy’s, Jonathan Van Ness (apologies if late to the posting party here, the thread is unreadable thanks to the deletions):

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.billboard.com/amp/articles/news/pride/8474290/jonathan-van-ness-emmy-outfit-response

LangCleg · 12/09/2018 10:23

I mean, if the OP wants a screenshot...

Women - but rarely Mumsnetters, as can be seen by a simple Google site-specific search - use the term men in dresses because it describes, simply and clearly, the inherent regressive sexism in gender identity ideology.

HTH.

SittingAround1 · 12/09/2018 10:25

Go to the middle east, they're all wearing dresses there.

Datun · 12/09/2018 10:26

Some transactivists are furious when men wear dresses but say they're not trans.

Apparently it interferes with their uniform and the signal that they are women.

Jaden Smith, who looks amazing, has come in for stick for muddying the waters - ie busting gender.

He's doing it all wrong.

When you get out of bed in the morning the most important thing you have to do all day is tell the world what your gender is, because from that, everything else flows.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/will-smiths-son-as-the-new-face-of-louis-vuitton-womenswear-might-seem-progressive-but-its-a6797461.html%3Famp

The term "men in dresses"
PositivelyPERF · 12/09/2018 10:30

He carries it off very well, but I’m not a fan of the sparkles. wonders if that makes me a man🤔

Not all the posters on Twitter were a fan.
It is shit like this that gets us REAL transgender people killed. Thanks

So apparently men in dresses get other men killed. 😮 Kurt cobain, Boy George and all those 80/90s icons must have been serial killers! 😁

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 12/09/2018 10:30

“Man in a dress” is a simple observation. When “men in dresses” show a disregard for the concerns of women and children and their rights to seperate male free spaces women react badly. We Wont be bullied. Their feelings don’t trump our rights to saftey.

PositivelyPERF · 12/09/2018 10:31

Sorry, that last post was to BettyDuMonde.

UpstartCrow · 12/09/2018 10:33

Full marks to OP for successfully 'framing the debate' as MRA Ben Shapiro would say.