The term "men in dresses"

[AuntMsVanillaRose]

Trans-excluders like to say that they're absolutely fine with boys who don't fit in with gender stereotypes. And I, not one of you, am fine with children not fitting gender stereotypes. But I don't think that is true of all of you. Why is "man in a dress" used as an insult by so many of you?

It's really quite 1984 the way you try to silence reasonable discussion. But you won't get away with it on a public forum.

Thing is, it is a public forum, so unless someone says something against MN rules, they can choose to engage with you, or they can talk about breakfast. Or anything else really.

And reporting someone for discussing their breakfast plans is ridiculous.

I rather like men in tights though.

Personally I think it's a bit early for breakfast. But for those who are a little non-plussed by the early Weetabix intervention on this thread, I should imagine it was deployed because the OP is so obviously a GF in the opening post, and has a history of this sort of posting.

The notion that the posters here should spend time playing silly games with this sort of thing, or let it stand as a misleading accusation, or let newer posters get sucked in to a fruitless debate, or even let some nasty shit do some ratfucking posting without being challenged is just a crappy appeal to female socialization and can do one.

Having endless debates on the pages of mumsnet about this sort of thing is a waste of time, IMO. Even though the issues are important. People starting these debates are just trying to keep their issue in the public eye. Best ignore.

Where is the OP?

Cor blimey, this thread is starting to look like Swiss cheese.

Men in dresses isn't an insult. It's a description. Men sometimes choose to take offense at this because they think that the act of putting on a dress makes them a woman. And they would therefore like us to say they are a woman because outwardly they are trying to look like that. And because they are 'women' they need access to female space. But course they aren't women. They are men. In dresses. No dress can change biology.

I like a man in a sarong (preferably on a beach in a hot climate ).
Nothing wrong with that and definitely not an insult.

Surely the word dresses is used as a short hand for “ typical women’s clothes”? It can of course be used to belittle, but often it is just a statement of fact, in particular used to make a strong point where someone who is typically male in most regards chooses to wear women’s clothes and call himself a woman.

I don’t really like the comparison with TWAW. It can never be factually correct to say that TWAW (though occasionally it might be true to say that TWAlegalW).

What has happened to the thread?! It's all gone Pete Tong!

I wouldn't go up to a random transwoman in the street and say 'hey, you're just a man in a dress' because that would be unkind, and also I wouldn't go up to a woman and say 'hey, you're a woman in trousers' either

However, when transwomen start trying to take over women's rights to their own spaces, their own refuges, their own sports, everything, then the time comes to turn around and say 'look, you're not a woman, you're a man in a dress'. If that is hurtful, well that's tough shit I'm afraid. A man's right to be denied objective reality does not trump a woman's right to single sex provision in the appropriate arenas. Sorry.

I think women are entitled to women only spaces and services, and should not be excluded from them. I am woman inclusionary, and I'm not sorry.

Go away and do something useful. Deal with male violence as ruthlessly as you police women.

Hi all,

Although I have to admit in my younger days I used to date men in dresses. They were quite attractive. But they never pretended to be what they were not, and they did not insist they were women. They were men. (In dresses)

David Bowie was a man in a dress and he looked fucking amazing. All these ‘woke’ twits think they invented men in makeup and dresses. How dare the OP say ‘man in a dress’ is an insult. Only a bigot would say that. Check your privilege, OP!

Men in dresses is no more of an insult than women in trousers, unless you think women in trousers is also an insult OP?
A man is an adult human male.
A dress is a garment of clothing.
The two things are as related and unrelated as a dog is a four legged furry thing with a tail, and a ball is a spherical playing object for sport, or a window is an aperture in the wall for letting in light and allowing a view to the outside, and curtains are large pieces of cloth that cover a window.

Men in dresses isn't an insult, at least not in my eyes. I'm fine with anyone wearing whatever they want.

One of my DH's oldest and best friends came out to me as a cross-dresser this weekend just gone. It was a surprise as I'd never seen any sign of it in the 25 years I've known him, but gender nonconformity isn't a big deal in the circles we move in so it certainly isn't a problem. We had a bit of a chat about it. (He really wanted to talk about dresses, but as I live in jeans & tshirts I wan't really the right person to have that conversation with!) He emphatically doesn't think he's a woman, and doesn't want to be a woman. He just likes dressing up sometimes.

Under Stonewall's definition he is now trans, except he isn't, he's just a bloke (occasionally) in a dress. Non-issue.

Wear what you want, just don't impose your values and stereotypes on me.

Seriously HopeMumsnet. Since when has recipes been against the rules? Are they classed as ‘literal violence’ now? 🤣

Hopemumsnet

Could you transfer the breakfast chit chat to another thread, possibly called breakfast chit chat?

I literally ran into Evan Dando once in the backstage area of Reading Festival. He was coming in as I was going out.

He was a man in a dress.

Nothing untoward happened. All was fine. He went on to do his Lemonheads thing and I watched and it was great.

Nobody was lied to. Yay.

@hopemumsnet @MNHQ

The trouble is, by deleting the breakfast chat you are making this thread look more controversial than it is.

Lots of deletions make it look as through a proper bun fight has taken place. Yes, I see that you’ve posted, but at first glance it looks really bad.

You’re doing more harm than good and making yourself look bad.

Easy enough to ignore the breakfast chat and carry on a conversation. But you’ve made it look like you’ve needed to be really heavy handed and that’s not great.

I agree that the breakfast derailing is a bit OFF. Its easy enough to discuss the question in the OP.

TGLWGH.

Sorry, didnt mean to put 'off' in capitals there!

Every single thing that Nicknamesalltaken has said.

In other words. Get a grip!

As an aside, off the back of this thread I have just discovered my new favourite YouTuber in John Maclean! Brilliant!

I know a transwoman. I think they would feel very upset if someone were to call them a man in a dress to their face.

Mrbatmun, I don't disagree that the breakfast chat was deployed surprisingly early, but as I said, I think it was probably borne out of frustration due to the OPs previous and current phrasing and posting behaviour.