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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Karen White case - how MN can help build political pressure for change

157 replies

PotsofJam · 08/09/2018 14:58

Jess Phillips MP has commented on the Karen White case, saying anyone convicted of VAWG should be excluded from the women’s prison estate.

See her tweet here:
twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1038350610163265537?s=21
This could be the start of a media-political process. Jess has raised a question here. Do other MPs agree with her? Does the Government agree?
Thanks to the wonder of Twitter, email and the rest, you can help make them answer that question.
So if you’re on Twitter and have some time to spare this weekend, why not send Jess’s tweet to some MPs and ask:

Do you agree with the chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Domestic Violence that prison service rules should be changed to exclude all VAWG offenders from the women’s estate, no matter what gender they identify as?

OP posts:
LangCleg · 09/09/2018 13:54

Floral Flowers

It is hard to see how this case could be any worse.

Convicted paedophile and rapist who had specifically used places of vulnerability to offend on multiple occasions, was put into a women's prison containing a mother and baby unit.

I cannot believe that this is not on repeat on all 24 hour TV news stations.

IAmLurkacus · 09/09/2018 13:58

Flowers floral Sad

R0wantrees · 09/09/2018 14:30

I cannot believe that this is not on repeat on all 24 hour TV news stations.

The BBC coverage online coverage still remains six sentences from the local area at the time of White's court appearance:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45436953

relevent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296433-BBC-Bias-Collecting-Examples-here

BabySharkDoododoo · 09/09/2018 15:12

Most news sources will purposely ignore this. As they will have been informed by trans lobby groups that reporting on stuff that 'never happens' makes people intolerant. Though I would hope that most people are intolerant towards fucking rapists and pedos to start with.

R0wantrees · 09/09/2018 17:32

Most news sources will purposely ignore this. As they will have been informed by trans lobby groups that reporting on stuff that 'never happens' makes people intolerant

I don't believe this is sustainable.

What is becoming increasingly apparent is the power that some trans-rights groups have had on those with power and influence including politicians & the press.

This is the thing which needs to be understood better.

At the Home Affairs select committee on hate crime, many of the newspaper editors interviewed described the various lobbies and trans-regulators that they worked with and alluded to the influence they have:
threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3233421-Home-Affairs-Committee-Hate-crime-enquiry-Newspaper-editors-interviewed

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238618-Trans-Media-Watch-has-written-to-parliament-saying-trans-identified-male-can-be-considered-as-hate-speech-and-that-Mumsnet-users-referring-to-penises-are-being-transphobic

James Kirkup wrote afterwards; 'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'

& concluded:
(extract)
"Surely a bright, thoughtful chap like [Stephen Doughty MP] didn’t mean to imply that it was his job as Member of Parliament to tell newspapers what they can and cannot write? Surely he had no intention of acting as if it is in any way appropriate for a politician to decide what is and is not acceptable for journalists to say, and how they say it? And I can only hope that it was by a simple accident that he singled out by name a female journalist and suggested that her employers stop her saying the things that she thinks – because Doughty happens not to like her saying those things?

As I say, I must assume that he meant none of these things, that he had no such moronic and bullying intent when he spoke and acted as he did. I assume that Doughty is an honourable politician determined to do his job in a democracy and ensure that matters of public policy are debated fully and honestly, whether or not some people find such debate offensive. Because, as I am sure Doughty knows, there is no right not be offended and if we ever let hurt feelings stop us discussing matters of public interest on the basis of the facts, everyone loses.

And it is because I am sure that he is wholly committed to such debate that I decided to write this article. Thanks for everything you’re doing to encourage the free press and open debate, Mr Doughty."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

IAmLurkacus · 09/09/2018 17:56

Stephen Doughty bright? Thoughtful? Honourable?? [snort]

OrchidInTheSun · 10/09/2018 07:56

David Gauke, the justice secretary, has just been on Today. He said it was a failure of assessment in this particular case, not of the policy. He was not challenged by Humphries Angry Angry Angry Angry

boatyardblues · 10/09/2018 08:30

I thought it was Nick Robinson interviewing, who not only mentioned that most TW transferring to the females estate still have their penises but also said that a rapist putting on a wig did not make them a woman.

bzzbeebzz · 10/09/2018 08:48

I am so disgusted by all of this. I am writing yet again to my female, Labour, MP who has already fobbed me off with the woke party line. She is a massive disappointment.

Wanderabout · 10/09/2018 09:01

It was Nick Robinson. I thought he did a good job.

Agree it's bollocks for the MoJ to argue it's just this particular case.

There's another rapist inside a women's prison right now as we speak FFS.

bzzbeebzz · 10/09/2018 09:13

I just RTFT and I have doubled up on my disgust upon reading the comments about the OP possibly being a plant for JP. Jess Phillips if you or your staffers are reading this go find some fucking integrity will you. You are late to this, possibly too late to redeem yourself, and your motives are suspect. If you are genuine then I’d suggest you politely request a meeting with FPFW and they can bring you up to speed on alll that you’ve been ignoring.
Mumsnetters are not going to run your campaign for you, FFS.

Wanderabout · 10/09/2018 09:22

Bzz an MP has made a suggestion on the record about something that may help women prisoners. No doubt partly because of all the brilliant campaigning and lobbying work done by women and orgs like WPUK and FPFW. I'm sure FPFW and any other campaigning org wanting to affect change will want to build on and amplify that to try and get a conversation started and something changed in practice by the decision makers.

ShotsFired · 10/09/2018 09:34

If you re-read the OP through a lens of "is this a Jess Phillips stooge posting for political gain", it all gets a lot more cynical.

RedToothBrush · 10/09/2018 09:44

David Gauke, the justice secretary, has just been on Today. He said it was a failure of assessment in this particular case, not of the policy.

  1. Gauke is covering his arse, cos the prison service have been caught with their pants round their ankles.
  2. There was no assessment here. There wasn't a failure of assessment, there just wasn't one.
  3. The policy is unworkable, because assessments aren't happening. Cos lets reflect on this; if there was a workable policy, then any assessment resulting from it should go exactly like this: Rapist? No, he can not go to a women's prison. The End. That's what 2 seconds to do?
  4. If they are even considering ONE rapist out of fear of getting sued, then again, the policy is not workable nor right. It needs to be laid out in the strictest legal terms that 'Rapists do not go in women's prisons. The End'.

This is not difficult. It is not controversial. It is not unpopular. It is not hard to be workable.

If you have a conviction for a sexual offense, your gender identity is completely bloody irrelevant.

Wanderabout · 10/09/2018 09:47

There was no assessment here. There wasn't a failure of assessment, there just wasn't one.

Exactly.

There is right now today as we are discussing this another rapist in another women's prison.

Men should not be in women's prisons.

OrchidInTheSun · 10/09/2018 09:48

Apologies - it was Nick Robinson and I thought he did a reasonable job up until that point when he should have challenged Gauke robustly.

And what RTB said.

R0wantrees · 10/09/2018 10:03

David Gauke, the justice secretary, has just been on Today. He said it was a failure of assessment in this particular case, not of the policy.

This seemed the likely approach that was going to be taken after the Guardian's late coverage yesterday:
(extract)
"The Ministry of Justice has apologised in White’s case and said previous offending history was not taken into account. Requests for transfer from prisoners whose legal gender does not accord with their self-identified gender are normally assessed by a transgender case board, “which should consider all previous offending history”, but this was not carried out in this case."

[[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/09/sexual-assaults-in-womens-prison-reignite-debate-over-transgender-inmates-karen-white]

The Guardian article also included comment by Francis Crook:

"Frances Crook, the chief executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform, said vulnerable women were being put at risk by a small number of violent men whose primary interest was harming women.

“It is a very toxic debate, but I think prisons have probably been influenced by some of the extreme conversations and have been bullied into making some decisions that have harmed women and put staff in an extremely difficult position,” she said.
Crook said that during a recent prison visit a governor told her of five prisoners who were identifying as women and had asked for transfer. All had a history of sexual violence against women and had had their requests turned down. “I would say decision-making is patchy,” said Crook. “While permission is being refused in some instances, clearly mistakes are still being made in others.”

She added: “In my view, any man who has committed a serious sexual or violent offence against women, who then wants to transfer but has not gone through the whole process, still has a penis and still has male hormones, should not be put into a women’s prison. There may be a case for having separate provision; that is a debate to be had.”

& Pilgrim Tucker:
"Pilgrim Tucker, who has led legal action over proposed changes to the Labour party’s policy on the formal inclusion of self-identifying trans women on all-women shortlists, said women campaigning about self-identification had long warned of the risk it posed. “Almost half of trans women prisoners are sex offenders,” she said. “We urgently need to start prioritising the safeguarding of women and girls over the feelings of male-bodied people.” (continues)

Wanderabout · 10/09/2018 10:03

The whole 'it was just this case it is all fine' line definitely needs some serious Robinsoning.

Nic Williams of the marvellous Fair Play For Women has just tweeted she is going to be on Victoria Derbyshire in about 10 mins to discuss this case:

mobile.twitter.com/AskNic/status/1039073161252364288

Elletorro · 10/09/2018 10:07

This is an easy political win.

It was a Tory policy. (Was Gove the minister at the time?) It’s patently bananas. Any of the other parties should be wiping the floor with them.

There’s fuel for PMQs that Theresa May will REALLY struggle with

R0wantrees · 10/09/2018 10:09

No doubt partly because of all the brilliant campaigning and lobbying work done by women and orgs like WPUK and FPFW

tweet by Sue Pascoe (recently appointed inclusion consultant for CHannel 4 and prospective Conservative candidate)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3331095-Channel-4-appoints-a-new-advisor-on-inclusion

Karen White case - how MN can help build political pressure for change
arranfan · 10/09/2018 10:15

Well, it's delightful that C4 effectively is now in line with that degree of hyperbole and mischaracterisation. I wonder how much longer it will be before WPUK has to issue desist letters.

I wonder if Sue Pascoe availed herself of SY Police Twitter soliciting reports of hurtful worlds etc. (as per AIBU).

I'm not the only poster thinking this, how long until FWR is reported and just how many times?

Wanderabout · 10/09/2018 10:32

Thanks Rowan your links and info are amazing.

Bloody hell on Sue Pascoe!!! I had missed that tweet. That's unhinged.

R0wantrees · 10/09/2018 14:07

Sue Pascoe also recently tweeted support for the petition to parliament which is an acknowledged attempt to outlaw Transgender Trend's toolkit from schools.
Hmm

R0wantrees · 10/09/2018 14:14

Its extraordinary Wanderabout isn't it? When on earth are these appalling smears against women going to be challenged?

When Sue was interviewed on Sky, she articulated considerable contempt for 'feminists', especially those who were also lesbians.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3311038-Sky-News-9-30am-today-re-GRA