Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Green Party thread 3

999 replies

FermatsTheorem · 30/08/2018 17:21

Previous thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3347925-Green-Party-statement-continuation-thread?pg=40

Will post links to AC's public statement and Caroline Lucas's appalling white wash job in a moment, but for me, Andrew Gilligan nails it yet again:
twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1034776005326581767

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 02/09/2018 23:37

It's starting to look as though 'personal integrity' comes quite far down the list too. Certainly WAY below 'calling shit out on social media' and 'claiming to feel unsafe'

ecosomething · 02/09/2018 23:44

Caroline Lucas has now agreed to meet Woman's Place UK twitter.com/CarolineLucas/status/1036300171150348288

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2018 23:50

I'm very glad to hear that.

But shouldn't that automatic response to the GRA, being sent out for GP members just to sign, be halted until after the meeting?

To at least give the pretence that some sort of communication might take place?

carceralfeminist · 02/09/2018 23:57

I don't know where we have landed on Stonewall, but parking this here for some more context on everything:

Apparently, Aimee Challenor was appointed to the Trans Advisory Group of Stonewall at the age of 18 in 2016 (web.archive.org/web/20160408152139/www.stonewall.org.uk/trans-advisory-group).

The Group's "Vision for Change" is basically a roadmap for what they want between 2017-2022. It was apparently authored by the 18 individuals in the group (although obviously not in a vacuum heavily influenced by all of the background).
(www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/stw-vision-for-change-2017.pdf)
If you want to know what the TRAs are campaigning for, this is an excellent document to look at, because the recommendations are pretty much exactly what is happening (and it is quite clear that they not only consider the GRA important legally, but also have eyes on changing the protected category in the EA to be gender identity)

It's very clear that women's interests are not represented, because every single one of the things we are protesting is basically exactly what was laid out in this document. Any individuals who feel that medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria are also not really represented (transsexuals).

Do not get me started on my questions about their "Sex by Deception" policy:
Recent ‘sex by deception’ cases involving trans people and gender identity issues have revealed an alarming lack of clarity around trans people’s rights and obligations to disclose or not disclose their trans history to their sexual partners. These cases demonstrate that it is possible for non-disclosure of a person’s trans status to impair the validity of consent. This leaves a great many trans individuals at risk of prosecution for a criminal offence.
Judicial clarity of ‘sex by deception’ cases to define the legal position on what constitutes sex by deception based on gender, and to ensure trans people’s privacy is protected.

AIBU to think both partner's biological sex/genitals/orientation should be always discussed before intercourse?

MipMipMip · 02/09/2018 23:58

Going back six or seven pages (sorry - catching up).

Caroline Lucas didn't seem to know about (blockterf) Didn't copy properly on phone!

Caroline Lucas has confirmed she did know. She got "democratically voted down." I'll try to find her confirmation.

ecosomething · 03/09/2018 00:01

I think a number of senior member of the Green Party who acquiesced to the party's trans mantra without ever fully believing it have had a very rude awakening in the last week and are genuinely seeing the dangers of blindly going along with cult-like dogma. Caroline's tone on Twitter this weekend is markedly different from her ill-judged article last week.

Also, now she'll no longer be the national leader but will just be a constituency MP hopefully she'll feel less pressure to adhere to bullshit.

WomblingWoman · 03/09/2018 00:02

It's seems that at least some people in the GP are finally waking up to the enormity of what's been going on.

MipMipMip · 03/09/2018 00:04

Caroline Lucas had full knowledge anout terfblocker.

twitter.com/CarolineLucas/status/1035541785500700673?s=20

SPOFS · 03/09/2018 00:07

Who are the Green's closest rivals in Brighton?

thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2018 00:24

I'm sorry, I just do not know how to link on my phone but - apparently - Owen Jones has gone through his timeline, deleting all the tweets where he calls women TERFs. 'Transphobes' remains. Apparently, he's never used the term, 'TERF'.

His response to the Challenor revelation.

It lacks reflection. 🤨 He, and the groups he represents, has too much invested in being able to attack women, colonise 'feminism' and 'progressive politics', and deflect attention from massive failure to create an adequate opposition to devastating inequality and the disaster of Brexit.

thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2018 00:33

SPOFS Labour. But they trail by a lot. Caroline Lucas seems to have a large personal vote.

carceralfeminist · 03/09/2018 00:36

Owen Jones has gone through his timeline, deleting all the tweets where he calls women TERFs. 'Transphobes' remains. Apparently, he's never used the term, 'TERF'.

Shock Really?!

thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2018 00:36

@Jsoosty seems to be the Twitter account suggesting Owen Jones has deleted any use of TERF.

Interesting he's recognised it's (become?) inappropriate ...

BitOfFun · 03/09/2018 00:38

Page Not Found, Carceral.

theOtherPamAyres · 03/09/2018 00:41

Hi @Spofs

Caroline Lucas did a deal with the Lib Dems not to stand against her in the 2017 election. It is a target seat for Labour.

NotAnotherFeckingMuftiDay · 03/09/2018 00:42

Surely not the OJ who was talking about the wrong side of history?

carceralfeminist · 03/09/2018 00:45

BitOfFun

What page?

Turph · 03/09/2018 00:47

carceralfeminist that's truly rage inducing. Ruth what is wrong with you? We're not talking about transsexuals - these are paedophiles, furries, age-shifting, a hundred genders, and that's all the same is it? Proposed legislation that will affect over half the population and quite possibly lead to a backlash against LGB people too? Are you so pigheaded as to believe all your predecessors achieved is set in stone? Are common or garden homos now so pedestrian you throw us all under the bus? I can't believe you would be so shortsighted as to completely fail to risk assess these future plans. Ruth, you have been in this game a long time, maybe pull your head out your arse and look around a bit. My sex, my intrinsic sexuality and my rights are not to come second to (in some cases) creepy fetishists. (NATWALT etc etc)
shame there's no way she will read it

thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2018 00:51

Thanks for the correction, Pam

I missed that!

Any idea what's been going on in Labour in Brighton Pavilion? Last Lab candidate didn't seem very Momentum-y.

thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2018 00:54

I haven't dared look through your links, Carcersl.

I'm going to look tomorrow - when I feel brave.

I'm guessing from what PP (I'm sorry - I've already forgotten your name - I'm a goldfish at the moment 💐) we really should be asking more questions about Stonewall and Challenor.

BitOfFun · 03/09/2018 01:02

The Stonewall link.

Green Party thread 3
thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2018 01:06

Turph it's probably been said before but here's my tuppence-worth: Back in the day, Stonewall were a fairly reactionary L& G organising group.

They were known for being well-funded and well-connected. They were known to have the ear, often through relationships - friendly - with politicians. They were quite 'Establishment' and - partly because of that and partly to hold on to those 'good' relationships - quite quiescent.

As the Section 28 protests and the AIDS protests kicked in, L G (and B) organising became more active and further and further removed from Stonewall.

There was a point when they were seen as out of touch and, actually, part of the problem.

Obviously, with anti-retrivirals, the repeal of section 28 and increased rights for L,GB+ people, activism died down.

I do wonder if part of the lurch to the TRA agenda has been a search for relevance in a changing landscape, a different pool of people who might join their organisation, a change in sources of funding and a wish to be slightly quicker to the (what seems like) the party this time. A misplaced identification and desire, I think, but I can believe that would have an effect.

(I promise to read your links. Despite my sinking heart.)

carceralfeminist · 03/09/2018 01:10

I think it's because I stupidly used the wrong kind of parentheses
Try this one?
www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/stw-vision-for-change-2017.pdf

carceralfeminist · 03/09/2018 01:20

The links aren't really anything that we didn't know already. I've made a little summary of some things that sprung out at me here (a bit mixed-matched from various segments but all taken from the document).
Trust me when I say that I do not think knock on effects, or other groups' concerns (especially the "old school transsexuals") were taken into account.

They write: LANGUAGE IS IMPORTANT.

Prisons:
An end to the mistreatment and abuse of trans people in the Criminal Justice System (CJS). Trans people must be housed in the correct prison and supported to live according to their self-identified gender. There should be robust training for the prison services and National Offender Management Service (NOMS).
....
NOMS need to ensure that prisoners are consistently and correctly placed in prisons according to their self-identified gender, with any exceptions fully justified according to the new policy and guidance.

Sports:
The right of trans athletes, particularly trans women, to actively participate in fair competition at every level of sport, often finds itself under scrutiny from fellow athletes and governing bodies.
Governing bodies must ensure there is full legal compliance and equality of provision to trans people, and that processes and procedures are regularly and frequently reviewed. National sporting bodies should be in regular communication with each other to ensure gender policies are up to date, coherent and consistent and follow the Equality Act and International Olympic Committee guidelines.

The LGB community:
There is also sometimes explicit hostility towards trans people from cisgender lesbian, gay or bi people (those whose gender identity matches the sex they were assigned at birth). There is also a lack of universal acceptance that trans identities are valid.

Finally, some members of other groups seeking gender equality refuse to recognise the legitimacy of either self-defined gender or legally defined gender through the Gender Recognition Act 2004. This can lead to hostility and abuse.

Kids:
All trans young people to have the right to medical confidentiality and individual consent in line with Gillick competencies.

Services that help children and young people coming to terms with their gender identity are invaluable. It is important that age-appropriate care and support is available to everyone who requires this. Mermaids is an organisation dedicated to supporting children and young people dealing with gender issues.
.......
These services work with young people, and their parents / carers, to decide on the right course of action for an individual, which could include the use of hormone blockers to delay puberty. This type of help is not appropriate for all young people exploring their gender identity, but it is an option that can help to prevent a child from being exposed to serious harm and support them to embrace who they are.

Removing the medical diagnosis component of trans:
The current provision of trans healthcare is still rooted in the medicalisation of gender diversity. New models of care, which don’t require psychiatric diagnosis as their foundation, should be explored.

The right of the marital partner to have a say in deciding whether to continue in marriage if the partner legally changes gender (Trans Widows):
In England and Wales, those who are married and want to have their gender legally recognised, need the written permission of their spouse in order to do so if they want their marriage to continue. If their spouse does not give this permission, the trans partner cannot have their gender legally recognised and remain married.

The significance of the GRA:
If people live as one gender, but are legally recognised as another, they do not have access to legal protections, such as the right to always be treated as their correct gender in the legal system, and for pension calculations and insurance policies.

And the single-sex exemptions/protected categories in EA:
The Equality Act also allows trans people to be treated differently in particular situations. When applying for certain jobs, participating in sport, accessing single-sex services, serving in the Armed Forces, or attending school a trans person’s rights are not the same as everyone else’s.
A reformed Equality Act that will protect all trans people. The protected characteristic should be changed from ‘gender reassignment’ to ‘gender identity’ and the use of the terms ‘gender reassignment’ and ‘transsexual’ should be removed. Trans people must be able to understand when their rights are infringed, and to be able to take appropriate action.

thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2018 01:23

😳on Twitter: DJandyhealey's timeline has a screenshot of the discussion between AC and other GP members/workers discussing establishing a mass reporting tool and the possible illegality of that.

This is The person standing as Deputy for the GP and other members - including Molly of the Comms department.

Discussing hiding possible illegal activity.

Oversight. Oversight. Oversight.

Swipe left for the next trending thread