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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Green Party thread 3

999 replies

FermatsTheorem · 30/08/2018 17:21

Previous thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3347925-Green-Party-statement-continuation-thread?pg=40

Will post links to AC's public statement and Caroline Lucas's appalling white wash job in a moment, but for me, Andrew Gilligan nails it yet again:
twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1034776005326581767

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
Amalfimamma · 01/09/2018 09:56

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Green Party thread 3
CesiraAndEnrico · 01/09/2018 09:57

Green party women have put out a statement saying they knew

So some people within the party did know. GPW have confirmed. Awaiting a firm statement I believe from Green Alphabet Soup and Young Greens as per their state of awareness.

With at least one group making a clear statement they knew, some questions come to mind

1- Was there a internal faction joint decision to withhold that information from the upper ranks

or

2- Was the info passed to one or more in the upper ranks who chose to avoid bringing the info to the attention of the rest of the uppermost ranks

or

3- Was the info brought to the attention of the upper ranks, but they do not enjoy a privileged position and were democratically outvoted in terms of taking action with regards to the info and both DC's and AC's respective positions/actions in light of the info.

If 3, Green Party is toast. I don't see that as survivable politically, people will laugh at them (at best) if they criticise their opponents ever again.

If 1/2 there is going to have to be some major upheaval in terms of marching orders, internal disciplinary action, restructuring and redefining who holds power, and what that power means.

I am not sure the Green party has enough people of the right calibre to fill holes left by departing "failed to act" people. I don't know if morale is high enough to survive that sort upheaval without splitting the party into 2 distinct groups, with very different outlooks.

And maybe that is a good thing. Because I think there is a real possibility that the Greens have suffered a slow, sneaky, take over bid from a group with very different priorities to the original Greens. I don't feel entirely sorry for them. Had they had employed more critical thinking, treated internal opponents to the take over with anything like an even hand/fairness and chased fewer virtue signalling opportunities, this could never have happened to them.

CesiraAndEnrico · 01/09/2018 10:02

Somebody asked who are Green Party Women. In people they highlight high profile members, like CL.

For the committee running it, they provide an email

But on their site I found this

greenpartywomen.org.uk/activities.html

Meeting at Spring Conference, 2017

So maybe some of the committee turned up for that meeting at the conference, and are in the picture.

Green Party thread 3
CoteDAzur · 01/09/2018 10:08

"I've raised and nurtured 10 year old girls and in my experience they are interested in minecraft, still need teddies in bed to make them feel safe, still want to watch Pixar films, are a beginning to be interested in pop music. It's a stage in their lives when they're just waking up a bit in terms of adult stuff and are curious but still children. They can never be described as Lying sluts, they are completely innocent."

DD (13) is still exactly like this. She is my height and quite developed biologically, but in her head she is no different than her 9-year-old sibling.

That is a horrible thing to say about an abused, tortured 10-year-old Sad

RedToothBrush · 01/09/2018 10:18
  1. the woman's statement was issued roughly 9hrs ago after the main green party said in their statement there would be no further statement on the matter. Its therefore a direct challenge to the authority of the main party
  2. Despite the main green party saying they will learn any hard lessons that need to be from the independent report, the women's branch has already said that they effectively have decided Aimee is not guilty of any wrongdoing 3)the women's branch statement says: "It will not make Mr Challenor's crimes any less horrific, or ameliorate our failure to properly vet his membership or his role as an election agent, by scapegoating his daughter. We want to state now that we will not tolerate any attempts to do so, or to blame young women for the party's failure. "

Except the party's structure is flat and supposed to give shared power to its members, but we are told at the same time, not responsibility. Ergo the party is responsible yet the party is a collective of individuals with fairly equal power. You can't blame an individual if they fail in their responsibility to the party you can only blame the party which is run off responsibility and power being shared amongst its members.

Or to put it another way, no one is accountable for anything. It can all be blamed on the concept of the party as a blob of a vacuum of no responsibility!

Honestly I hope the independent inquiry looks at this statement as part of the process as it says everything. There is a culture of no one taking responsibility for anything.
4) Also the above paragraph about 'victim blaming'; an election candidate has a legal responsibility about their declarations, so if they decide its appropriate to appoint anyone who has been charged with a criminal offense of any kind, they are exposing themselves to a whole world of potential trouble. It is Not in any way the responsibility of the party who the candidate appoints as their agent. In law the candidate and agent are distinctly responsible for promotion of the candidate and their declarations and their campaign material. The party itself isn't directly legally responsible. It's a quirk which means any attempt to deflect this back to the party is a failure to understand where responsibility lies.
5) we seem to be going back to this paradox of where young candidates are not responsible for their own actions despite being grown adults - but they are regarded as suitable to stand for election to parliament and to represent the interests of constituents and all that responsibility it entails. Sorry this does not wash. Either you are responsible or not. Invoking the 'they are too young' card is bullshit. In this case we also seem to be given the fragile poor little girl narrative. By the seemingly ever so feminist women's branch of the Green Party. I mean, seriously?!! How progressive. Hmm
6) The women's branch are persisting with this line that Aimee had only limited knowledge. This despite Coventry Pride's awareness and action taken to tell all the Trustees. So let's see how long this line lasts.
7) And let's go back to Caroline Lucas.
Caroline Lucas says: I might be leader but we are a democratic party and we do things by debating them. I don't have individual power.
Also Caroline Lucas in 2016: I am fully aware of Terf Blocker and how it restricts the ability to property engage in debate.
Errr OK.
So are you democratic or not democratic. You can't be democratic and support methods which deliberately try to restrict debate.
8) What about Tina?
Funnily enough, the best way Aimee could have been protected from a lot of this would have been for Tina to take the fail early on. It wouldn't have solved everything, since responsibility for appointing an agent is goes directly back to the candidate, but Aimee could have argued "but mum checked all this out" a lot more. Instead, Tina is hiding behind Aimee.
If Tina is still a member, is she suspended. If not why not. If not, it highlights the extent of the cynical attempt to protect the party itself from scrutiny by wailing transphobia. Who is scapegoating young girls again?

In short, this is an epic clusterfuck with the Green Party coming out looking sexist and regressive from its women's branch, there being a lack of any chain of command or understanding of what people are responsible for, a culture of abdication of responsibility, a climate of bullying and intimidation where cliques dominate the party and people feel unable to speak out even about condemning a paedo without being anonymous because of the mere presence of someone trans and God forbid we might upset them, a total lack of understanding that encouraging and facilitating debate rather than creating tools to cut off debate and many women from engaging with party officials via social media because they happen to ask questions that might be a bit awkward...

... And the Green Party are sat their wondering why they are in this fucking mess and the best defence they have is 'because transphobia'.

Do fuck off.

If this investigation is in anyway independent and has any scope which is remotely interested in getting to bottom of this, it's going to be an absolute car crash.

As for Claire Lorraine Phipps the acting head of the women's green branch. Let's have a look at her.
www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2016/09/14/greens-select-disability-activist-to-contest-brockley-by-election/
From a 2016 biography. I assume this is the same person.

27 year old Phipps, who analyses public health data as part of a PhD, said that she was “really chuffed” to have been selected in “a highly winnable seat for the Greens” and that she had been “waiting years for the opportunity to fight back on behalf of residents."

And

Phipps trained in demography and public health, in which she is now undertaking a PhD with a research council scholarship.

Demographics and Data. Like what?!

The whole lot of them are utterly naive, stupid and not fit to run a stall at the loyal fete never mind a political bloody party.

CesiraAndEnrico · 01/09/2018 10:21

That is a horrible thing to say about an abused, tortured 10-year-old

I agree.

It is also potentially quite a revealing choice of vocab.

Slut is a fairly common language choice when used by a female about another female in anger, when describing a rival for her partner's romantic/sexual affections.

gendercritter · 01/09/2018 10:26

That Green Party Women statement is appalling. What is wrong with people?

If your father is arrested for the most heinous crimes and you don't wish to know anything about them, that is your prerogative. If the same happens and you wish to enter politics and you involve said father in your election campaign, you deserve to be scrutinised extremely closely and lose all public and your party's support. Age is no excuse.

And yes to why are we not hearing more about Tina?

LangCleg · 01/09/2018 10:32

However and this is a big however - some of those victims are adults now and are showing little capacity to self-reflect plus have been incredibly hostile to women demonstrating some dangerous traits of misogyny, breaking boundaries and attacking others. The sad fact is not all victims are remorseful. Some do go on to abuse others and need to be held accountable for that adult action. And it takes time and a lot of therapy to unpack this stuff. And whatever that impact, the GP has to take responsibility for the fact it has allowed itself to be used as abusers by proxy and that many, many women have been harmed in that process.

This. It is possible to be simultaneously damaged/vulnerable and dangerous/malicious.

Being damaged/vulnerable can be mitigation for dangerous/malicious acts or behaviour but it is not a get-out-of-jail-free card to escape accountability.

Popchyk · 01/09/2018 10:32

Clare Phipps is the one who prepared a written statement to court, supporting AC's application for an injunction against Andy Healey, fellow Green Party member.

twitter.com/djandyhealey/status/1034470990162616320

"Re 'debate' I asked perfectly reasonable questions at a workshop re gender-id at 2016 spring conference & this was reported by chair Molly Arthurs as 'harassment' & refered to by Clare Phipps in her written statement to court supporting AC's civil injunction".

arranfan · 01/09/2018 10:43

Given that horrendously ill-advised statement by the Green Party's Women's Committee - can someone in the GP please bring it to the attention of the Senior Officers?

Id they've pre-judged the issue (and they have, according to their statement), how on earth are they expected to cooperate with an independent investigator?

I say again, we need to know:
who the independent investigator is;
what the independent investigator's scope and remit is (to also investigate the actions in allowing Tina Challoner to stand; the injunction action against Healey; the treatment of Oivia and other women);
are members and officers instructed to cooperate with the independent investigator;
how long will the investigation take;
will the results be shared publicly?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/09/2018 10:45

Is it just me or is it the same bunch of people doing all the higher level stuff in the greens? The same names keep popping up over and over.

theOtherPamAyres · 01/09/2018 10:47

Clare Phipps is significant.

Until her resignation (see link below) she was Chair of the Excecutive Committee.

She, herself, has a lot to answer for in the way gender critical greens were suppressed and vilified. She one of the high profile green enabling the Trans Lobby.

bright-green.org/2017/11/23/why-i-resigned-as-chair-of-the-green-party-executive/

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 10:48

this was reported by chair Molly Arthurs as harassment

Molly Arthurs is the "non binary" comms person who appears to be female who answered why David Challenor was allowed to be Green photographer when being investigated for his crimes with "what were we supposed to do when he gave us a false name" (paraphrased). Someone probably has the screenshot, it was in a conversation with a Green woke bro concerned about the optics of employing child rapists.

RedToothBrush · 01/09/2018 10:50

Clare Phipps is the one who prepared a written statement to court, supporting AC's application for an injunction against Andy Healey, fellow Green Party member.

Clare Phipps is in serious danger of looking like she's trying to interfere with a independent investigation to cover her own arse.

Once again it looks like a powerful clique dominating the party for their own ends with no regard for democracy.

The main party statement said Aimee Challenor was being investigated after a number of complaints. The assumption made is that these all relate to David Challenor in some way. But Olivia and Andy appear to have cause to complain about straightforward bullying to which Clare Phipps looks like she might have more than a minor role in.

Was the statement by the Green Party Women actually by the Green Party Women. Or just Clare Phipps?

You have to ask if it's an abuse of her role to have released that statement at all after the main party had said no further comments.

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 10:50

mobile.twitter.com/mollyarthurs

ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 01/09/2018 10:55

Back in the room after concentrating on the allotment this week.

Allotments.

Food growing.

What the Greens should be all about.

And yet they couldn't even stop the male aggression in blocking all the women who are natural allies from speaking.

RedToothBrush · 01/09/2018 10:56

That why I resigned article by Clare Phipps is something special alright. This paragraph needs highlighting for its sheer utter hypocrisy.

After the Green surge, we had the potential to become more that a one hit wonder. Caroline Lucas is beyond doubt an excellent MP, but can anyone live up to the image that has been created for her? If we are going to be able to become more than “Cult Caroline”, we need to stop acting like one. We need to encourage thanks, yes absolutely, but also constructive scrutiny of those who speak for us in public. We need to do more to ensure we are all living our values. Why should anyone vote for us, particularly in the current political climate, if we are just another political party, saying one thing in public and doing another in private?

Honestly.

Train Wreck.

thecatfromjapan · 01/09/2018 11:02

I agree, Red.

I'm also interested in how much group oversight the Women's Party statement had.

Would I be right in thinking that the Communications group members are all automatically part of the Women's Group executive committee? And I'm thinking that some of them are on the Executive Committee too?

So that's a tight-knit circle (Aimee would have been part of this circle - so I guess it would be her communication network) who overlap a lot.

Claire Phipps stood as Councillor in Brockley recently. I don't know if she was successful BUT given her willingness to ride roughshod over democratic process and internal procedure, and - potentially, it would seem - issues with bullying and not being responsive to calls to be scrutinised, I am not sure she'd be my first choice as my representative on the lical Council.

Brockley's lovely. The sort of area I would imagine would have a strong Green presence.

arranfan · 01/09/2018 11:02

Clare Phipps is in serious danger of looking like she's trying to interfere with a independent investigation

^^ Is anybody lining up to co-operate with an independent investigation with an open mind?

thecatfromjapan · 01/09/2018 11:04

Oh, I see I'm well behind. Sorry.

RedToothBrush · 01/09/2018 11:14

It really does start to look like one of the reasons Aimee is being protected is because other people have some questions to answer, and they are using Aimee as a trans wall.

God I hope they tell us who is going to be this independent force to investigate and the extent of its remit cos that's going to be bloody interesting.

thecatfromjapan · 01/09/2018 11:20

Wouldn't it be nice if we could think Aimee had someone near her who is grounded, not self-interested, and is not intent on squeezing the last drop of political mileage possible?

ecosomething · 01/09/2018 11:24

Clare Phipps was not successful in her election bid. Brockley Ward had been represented by the Green Party for almost twenty years until this year.

ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 01/09/2018 11:27

Even the NSPCC can't investigate due to not seeing safeguarding issues.

Who on earth could be trusted to be independent here?

Procrastinator1 · 01/09/2018 11:27

Clare Phipps, what a sense of entitlement. Most people would be trying to think about ways to raise funds for the party, not just expecting money.

How does Aimee finance herself?