Caroline Lucas on Aimee Challoner in the Guardian

[Latinista]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/30/look-future-aimee-challenor-trans-green-party-caroline-lucas?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Starts off promising, then segues into trans apologia and mealy-mouthed justifications why she hasn’t taken further action

I am fast losing my temper and think it's best I go offline for the evening. I cannot trust myself to comment.

I was gobsmacked at this bit:

Take one example: despite what you might read elsewhere, there’s no evidence that allowing trans people to self-declare will open doors for predators intent on abusing or attacking women and girls. Rather, obtaining a gender recognition certificate (GRC) will not change anything much other than removing the obstacles for trans people wanting, for example, an amended birth certificate or driving licence. It does not in any way affect whether a person presents as a man or woman on a daily basis.

If an individual wants to present as a different gender to the one they were assigned at birth, they do not need to go through the self-declaration process to do so.

Hardly anybody cares if Bob wants to present as Kate and go about his life accordingly. Good luck to him/her.

We care about the Equalities Act being used to say that once you've got your GRC/ new birth certificate you cannot be kept out of women's prisons, refuges, quotas, for example.

Women have already been attacked in prisons and refuges by men who used a claim of being trans to get into those women's prisons and refuges. You are telling us it will never happen when it already has!

If self-ID becomes law then DC could self-ID to get his GRC. He can prove that he has been cross-dressing for years if any proof is still required. He gets his new birth certificate, he is she and the prison service has to move "her" to the women's estate. That's not fear-mongering. That's the truth, we've already seen it happen with other prisoners.

Why is Caroline Lucas not talking about how to stop the abuses that have already happened under the existing GRC rules and where organisationa "go ahead of the law".

I do not understand how she cannot be engaging with that discussion. She doesn't seem malicious or dim.

Deer Amy

How y doin hun? Soz bout all the hatez u bin gettin. Honestly, wotz wrong with people they goin on about u not tellin us bout the bad thing (letz not menshun that -lolz) ur dad did?

Fuck the Haterz!!

Girl power! ❤️❤️❤️

U lookin good babe. Can't wait til u can km bk.

All the love, girl!

Stay strong!

Hugs n kisses

Cazza

I want no part of Caroline Lucas' dystopian future.

No one is assigned gender at birth.
Sex is a series of physical and genetic characteristics.
This just needs repeating to the people who think they are scientists and speak the truth.

I'm pretty sure she's trying to obscure the Green Party's failures by creating a smokescreen of "oh it's transphobic." No it's not, the concerns are that DC was an election agent and putting up motions, taking photos at Green Party events while facing charges for child rape and torture, AC made him her election agent after (as per A Gilligan) she would definitely have known about the charges as a trustee of Coventry Pride, TC may have been in breach of rules by standing as a candidate despite a recent animal cruelty conviction, we don't know whether the adult Challoners had personal data about members as their address was the Coventry HQ, and we are concerned about the bullying of Green Party members by DC/AC. The Green Party is a busted flush for me now. I can understand that they have small memberships in some areas and overstretched admin so they may not have the capability to vet all candidates. But then the responsible thing to do is to admit that they can't put up candidates everywhere and they have to look like something a bit less than a national party. Which would be a shame for those of us who prioritise environmental issues but, and I can't believe I'm having to write this, you can't prioritise Green Party electoral success over ensuring that child rapists don't get credibility and access to data, or physical access, to vulnerable people. She knows all that and that's why she's saying the problem is transphobia. She's not thick and she knows full well that they have a lot to answer to and it's easier for her to deflect than to answer.

Imagine if AC were, say, a Tory in favour of fox-hunting not a Green in favour of Trans.

Can you imagine the headlines if May's reaction to these events was to write a long article about fox hunting protests instead of the total safeguarding and due diligence failure. She'd be ripped apart.

Not read the whole thing yet but the title:

I look to a future in which Aimee Challenor being trans doesn’t matter

• it's not the trans. It's the prior knowledge of Csa in their campaign hq.

I'm not getting your analogy there Rabbits.

Wow. There are just so many things she has got completely wrong in that article. Like talking about gender dysphoria being a genuine medical condition, while at the same time supporting policies that would make dysphoria completely irrelevant to transitioning; and the law "saying TWAW since 2004" when actually the Equalities Act makes it clear that a distinction can be made between TW and women via the sex-based exemptions (ergo they are NOT the same). Not to mention the bizarre omission that sociopaths pointed out.

She also misses the point totally wrt "the theoretical possibility that individuals might undergo gender reassignment for abusive purposes" - firstly, they wouldn't need to "undergo" anything under self ID, and second, unless the current exemptions are maintained or strengthened (as they're currently being attacked from all directions), it'll potentially be hard to prevent any male (with or without GRC) from entering women's spaces. (It almost sounds as though she doesn't understand her own party's policy at all).

And finally, she seems to be under the impression that the whole objection to AC is due to AC being transgender. When actually the two main concerns have been a) that AC's use of DC as campaign manager etc. while it appears AC must have been aware of the charges against him shows, at the very least, extremely poor judgement (but potentially much worse), and b) that at the same time, AC was campaigning alongside DC (who, let's not forget, would himself qualify as "trans" according to the Stonewall definition) for policies that would make it far easier for people like DC to get access to potential victims.

In Caroline's magical utopia where "aimee being trans doesn't matter", Aimee would have been thrown to the wolves.

Teflon.

Now I have read it, I just want to comment on every paragraph and scream.

It's total batshit!

@placemats CL is writing about the thing AC was originally controversial for instead of the newly revealed issue which is much much more serious. I couldn't imagine a party leader being able to get away with that if the original controversial issue were anything else, e.g. fox-hunting.

A world where Aimee is protected is here, right now. Aimee has more women's fucking rights than I do, and I'm a woman born. Meanwhile, in Caroline's current world, it's biological women and all children who don't matter. Not one jot. In fact, they're not even women. They're "non-men".

Caroline, one day you are going to wake up and realise you're way above your neck in shit. Don't expect the TRAs to pull you out of it, they're more likely to use you as a stepping stone and force your head RIGHT under. Don't count on us helping you, either. You're on your own.

Can someone please explain to me how Aimee Challenor is a trans person other than she declared she was trans by coming out at the age of sixteen.

Still not getting it Rabbits

I don't get notifications when you @ me btw.

I notice Caroline Lucas has not repeated the statement that The Green Party were unaware of the charges against the child rapist and torturer, David Challenor when they were using his home as local HQ and making use of his services as an election agent and party activist.

Does this mean they are withdrawing that claim?

If any members of the Green Party are reading, can they throw any light on it?

"My party has long recognised that trans women are women and trans men are men. That’s been upheld by the law since 2004"

But that is only the case in law if you have a GRC. And fewer than 5000 people do. And even then it is a legal fiction.

Caroline admits to having to bend her views to fit with trans ideology. And to think I used to give her so much more credit for critical thinking. I can only assume she feels she has more to lose personally by being gender critical than by being pro trans ideology.

One thing is certain, if Aimee was a (natal) woman then not only would she not have had such a meteoric rise for a 20 year old, she would have been out on her ear. Of that I have NO doubt.

The Greens make Ryanair look like an open, honest and responsive organisation.

We can shout, scream, explain calmly or yell our heads off. She doesn't give a shit. She'll just keep us on hold and refuse to answer anything that costs her anything.

She is a cowardly, cynical, morally bankrupt human being and I hope the loses whatever tiny shred of credibility she's ever had with mainstream voters.

Why does she hate us? We're her fucking core target voters.

I am going for a walk and I may be some time.

I can't tell you how sickened I feel. All those years working for the Green party were wasted years.

Rabbits I think your analogy is spot on. And you're quite right

"Caroline admits to having to bend her views to fit with trans ideology"

I think that's what is particularly jarring for me. She outright says that she - at one point - understood actual feminism (for females), but has decided not to believe her own testimony and has instead been brainwashed. I'd pity her if I wasn't so bloody livid right now. Think I'm gonna join Lang in stepping away for a bit...

Caroline is desperately trying to hold onto her job, that's obvious. I'm actually really disappointed in her as a person not just as a politician. To show such little compassion towards the ten year old victim and by writing such a pathetic statement she has shown her true colours. Shame on her

Nice spot, Floisme.

Given that the police should have informed the GP that the Coventry HQ was a crime scene, back when the charges were brought, it seems unlikely no-one other than Aimee knew about the charges against DC.

Similarly, there is the tweet from - agh!! What was her name?? - saying Aimee gave a false name for her father prior to his attendance at GP events in 2017-8. And the suggestion AC was told to do this.

If people in the GP did know, Caroline Lucas' statement just swims in cynicism: make it all about transphobia, all about AC, to cover up the question: who in the Green Party knew? What did the Green Party know?