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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caroline Lucas on Aimee Challoner in the Guardian

239 replies

Latinista · 30/08/2018 16:47

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/30/look-future-aimee-challenor-trans-green-party-caroline-lucas?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Starts off promising, then segues into trans apologia and mealy-mouthed justifications why she hasn’t taken further action

OP posts:
Macareaux · 01/09/2018 08:55

Caroline may not have any power in her party, and on that I do believe her. But surely as the only MP and well respected in her own right, does she not retain the nuclear option?

Could she not cross the floor if she feels powerless in regard to egregious actions within the Green Party ?

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 01/09/2018 09:04

Tried to catch up last night- read Caroline’s piece. One thing that keeps coming back to me is the image of the tweet by Aimee it’s on the Green Party statement thread-I think I’ve managed to attach it. It’s from 2016. Surely all this kind of communication is available for checking out by the Green Party. Before someone becomes heavily involved in their party. Why would you back someone as a spokes person for your party who speaks like this about women or anyone else?. Why is this ok? Is this what we have come to now on the U.K. this is acceptable. It screams of red flag to me. The fact that either this type of communication is ok for Caroline and the Green Party/was not ok but she didn’t have the clout to do anything, (which is frankly buck passing please see her moan about TERF blocker.) or dare I say it they just don’t do background checks of any kind. Sums the whole mess up. I would think that any employer in any capacity would see this ( I know there are loads more.) and not take them on. No way would I employ anybody communicating in that way. Violent words breed violent actions in my opinion.

Caroline Lucas on Aimee Challoner in the Guardian
Sarahandduck18 · 01/09/2018 09:24

Given the Green Party support the paid rape of women it’s not surprising they are run by child rape apologists.

missedith01 · 01/09/2018 09:27

Not sure I'm buying this, "someone was told but didn't act because they didn't realise the significance of what they'd been told" idea. If they were given anything like the facts without omissions the significance was horribly clear. If there were omissions then why and by whom?

Floisme · 01/09/2018 09:30

I have more time for excuses made for Aimee Challenor than I have for any colluders within the Green Party, should there be any. And I have even less after reading that Green Women statement. However I do sympathise with decent, hardworking members - I know there are many.

Floisme · 01/09/2018 09:39

Thanks again arranfan for all the tweet references.

Charliethefeminist · 01/09/2018 10:18

Yes, I think excuses can be made for Aimee Challenor, but the excuse is not that they are trans and therefore vulnerable. The 'excuse' is actually the very real reason, not an excuse, that they grew up in a dysfunctional household with an abusive parent.

R0wantrees · 01/09/2018 10:19

Why would you back someone as a spokes person for your party who speaks like this about women or anyone else?. Why is this ok? Is this what we have come to now on the U.K. this is acceptable.

cf Aimee Challenor's evidence on behalf of Green Party & response to her:

Committee of Standards in Public Life, Intimidation in Public Life: Evidence from the Green Party:
TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING WITH AIMEE CHALLENOR, GREEN PARTY CANDIDATE FOR COVENTRY SOUTH IN 2017 GENERAL ELECTION
21 September 2017, London
Committee members present: Lord Bew (Chair), Sheila Drew Smith OBE, Dr Jane Martin
CBE, Jane Ramsey, Monisha Shah, Rt Hon Lord Stunell OBE

(extracts from AC's evidence)
"In the election campaign, I was targeted because I was an openly transgender person in politics, I received tweets or direct messages calling me a “delusional child abusing freak” . I had people telling me to kill myself, comments saying “zero debate needed, just point and
laugh hysterically. This needs bullying”. It is quite clear from the most recent general election in the UK, as well as conduct during other recent elections around the world, that politics is becoming more toxic. Intimidation from activists, members, and indeed other
candidates is growing. More can, and should, be done by all parties to tackle this behaviour and offer support to candidates.
These actions should include implementation and proper enforcement of Codes of Conduct, as well as the introduction of a ‘Candidate Welfare Officer’ or similar, so that Candidates may have a point-of-contact. It is also my belief that action needs to be improved beyond political parties, social media websites need to improve at removing abusive content: too often I see “We reviewed your report carefully and found that there was no violation of our Rules regarding abusive behavior” - this has happened with some of the comments I read out to you earlier. Division in society is fuelled by social media; people feel they have an anonymous face. And it is fuelled by others behaving in a hateful way, it encourages others."

"More needs to be done by the Police, when I myself have reported abusive content to the appropriate authorities, it’s been brushed aside and eventually not even forwarded on to the Crown Prosecution Service."

"There should be a strong Code of Conduct. We [Green Party] have one and a specific policy with regard to bullying behaviour. We don’t tolerate it. There should be a welfare officer, if only to signpost further. Local Council candidates in general face it too. The public see no difference between local and national candidates"

" We [Green Party] have particular groups e.g. Greens of colour, women, LGBTIQA+ and others. These groups specialise in supporting these people - has led to better relations with the Party. At election time they form a key part of supporting those groups of people.
Generally, it’s support with emails, social media, and peer support. We did some press handling too for a transgender candidate where the local media wanted to write pieces referring to the candidate’s gender identity in a sensationalist way and the candidate was very uncomfortable with their use of language. We worked with the paper and also reported to Trans Media Watch, which did help. After we spoke to the newspaper, they did write a piece using more appropriate language."

"We should be in a society where we teach to treat each other with respect. It comes from the top and bottom. Politics is toxic. A lot of campaigns involve negative campaigning. We need to see less of that to see a decrease in negative campaigning.
With respect to the Green Party, there is an executive, and a regional committee. We can recall leadership if they are bringing the Party into disrepute. There have been no difficulties with Caroline Lucas or our other Spokespeople."

www.gov.uk/government/publications/intimidation-of-parliamentary-candidates-evidence-from-the-green-party

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 01/09/2018 11:34

“delusional child abusing freak”

Does this suggest David Challoner's crimes were known and Aimee Challenor not missing a beat in continuing to work with him angered people?

I wonder if the first aid ambulance stuff has some things that are going to come out.

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 11:43

It's quite a specific accusation.

arranfan · 01/09/2018 11:59

It's quite a specific accusation.

Unless AC provided the committee with copies of the written accusations it's difficult to know if this was random abuse being hurled by a random person who conflates trans/sexuality with unnatural predilections.

Not commenting on AC's committee evidence here but one of the most annoying aspects about the court case involving QMU, the PACE research team, and various fibromyalgia charities/researchers, was that the academics had claimed to have received threats of violence, death, and general intimidation. When the case came to court, there was no evidence of these threats. (The case relating to the release of the trial data is covered by the excellent Retraction Watch amongst others.) Senior academics have been known to misrepresent the activities of those with whom they disagree - in this case, in an attempt to forestall further discussion and discredit those requesting release of the data.

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 12:01

I know that. Just think the wording was interesting.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/09/2018 12:34

Just think the wording was interesting

In light of recent events I tend to agree. I wonder how "known" the family was in the area.

CharlieParley · 01/09/2018 13:31

According to several people involved in child protection/dealing with CSA this is procedure in such cases, also followed here:

-the police interview everyone living at the crime immediately (we know this is true from Aimee's own FB message to David in 2015)

-in the interviews the seriousness of the alleged offense is made clear

-anyone connected with the scene of the crime is also informed, this information includes the nature of the crime - CSA - but not necessarily the details. This would include Green Party HQ (Green Party statement is that they did know but Aimee informed them, nothing about the police)

Serious questions that arise from this:

Is the police obliged to inform all kids orgs that someone accused of CSA is involved with them? At which point in the proceedings? If not why not?

I ask this because according to the details of the case, the child finally told someone in 2015, this person then informed the police, the police got a warrant for the Challenor house and found the torture chamber set up as described by the child and photographs showing the child/the child being abused.

In 2015 therefore the police had a lot of hard evidence (of a material nature, not merely a witness statement or circumstantial) corroborating the accusation of CSA.

Given the close correlation between animal abuse and child abuse and that the Challenors had already been convicted because of the former and their kids taken off them several times because of the latter (these are facts the Green Party would have been aware off due to the very public campaign the Challenors fought to get their kids back), why was it possible for David Challenor to get access to other people's kids?

And given all of the above incl the admission by the Green Party that they knew of the allegations, how could someone guilty of animal and child abuse and now accused of child sexual abuse be allowed to inform Green Party policy on the safeguarding of children?

Where did we go wrong? What proceedures do we need to bring in at volunteer-led organisations to prevent this from happening again?

P.S. To state the blatantly obvious, trans does not come into any of the above.

CharlieParley · 01/09/2018 13:32

^living at the scene of the crime, obviously

CharlieParley · 01/09/2018 13:34

AND WHY THE FUCK IS CAROLINE LUCAS NOT ADDRESSING OR EVEN ASKING ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS?

R0wantrees · 01/09/2018 13:41

28th August 2018 Coventry Pride Statement:
"Mr [David] Challenor volunteered for the Charity in 2015 and 2016 he assisted with event set up and take down, and designing some posters and leaflets. The Trustees were made aware of criminal proceedings being taken against Mr Challenor in November 2016. A directive was issued to those responsible for volunteer recruitment that Mr Challenor was not to be accepted as a volunteer at the Charity’s events and if he attended public events organised by the Charity he was monitored by the trustees. "

31st August 2018 BBC article:
"His [DC] crimes came to light after the girl confided in someone and it was reported to the police, who interviewed her towards the end of 2015.

[David] Challenor was charged in November 2016, West Midlands Police said."

[www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-45373833

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348977-BBC-on-David-Challenor-well-finally-Edited-by-MNHQ-at-OPs-request

arranfan · 01/09/2018 14:04

If the independent investigator manages to pull together a timeline of what was known and when, it would clarify matters enormously for determining what actions might have been appropriate.

placemats · 01/09/2018 14:06

Where did we go wrong? What proceedures do we need to bring in at volunteer-led organisations to prevent this from happening again?

There are strict guidelines regarding volunteers now. However, having been just a periphery member of a local volunteer group for over a decade, there was one meeting in which all had to attend to discuss the Victoria Climbie report and safeguarding issues. The aunt had said she was having messages from God to harm her niece, Victoria, and had mentioned this to the Vicar of her local Methodist Church.

Jimmy Savile report:

www.gov.uk/government/collections/nhs-and-department-of-health-investigations-into-jimmy-savile

How many reports does this country need, at huge expense I might add. Coventry Pride clearly took swift action with regard to David Challenor and implemented, correctly, the guidelines regarding safeguarding issues.

www.coventrypride.org.uk/2018/08/28/a-statement-from-the-trustees-of-coventry-pride/

Of note Aimee Challenor is a trustee of Coventry Pride according to Stonewall

www.stonewall.org.uk/trans-advisory-group.

Aimee is a trans equality campaigner from Coventry. She came out in 2014 aged 16 as she left school. She speaks openly about her experiences as a young transgender woman. She’s previously had articles in the Guardian and the Huffington Post, as well as other websites from around the world. She’s also a Trustee of Coventry Pride

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/09/2018 14:09

the police interview everyone living at the crime immediately (we know this is true from Aimee's own FB message to David in 2015)

I don't think that FB message was to David was it? The onset saying answer my texts, the police have been.

placemats · 01/09/2018 14:10

I meant to add that I was volunteering in a Methodist Church Hall at that time. I'm not a member of any religion or religious organisation.

R0wantrees · 01/09/2018 14:17

January 2017 Coventry Pride Chairperson comments re BBC:
'Transgender Kids: Who knows best – An Ally’s Response.'
(article concludes)
"I came away from this TV show angry, appalled, outraged and deeply concerned for my trans+ family who I knew would be feeling this worse than me as aside from some crossfire regarding questionable statistics around young males who initially presented as trans allegedly turned out to be gay instead it wasn’t an attack on my identity, it was a full broadside to my trans+ family, thankfully they seem to be holding up ok, but as I type calls to trans charities and helplines have increased, some of my more prominent trans friends are dealing with an increased volume of social media abuse all for the crime of proudly owning who they are as trans. More insidiously this program followed an awful piece on

More insidiously this program followed an awful piece on Newsnight on the 11th and many articles and opinion pieces attacking trans individuals, trans charities and parents who support their trans kids. This all feeds into an “othering” of the trans community by the media and in society, in general. Many of my trans friends have been opposing this, within the Pride committee which I am chairperson of it is a running joke that I am like momma bear protecting her cubs there’s more truth than joke to that if you are a friend of mine or a part of my community you are mine and I am protective of you, if I have to put myself in harms way to keep you safe I will, the BBC just took a swipe at my family this will not stand, while as an ally it will never be appropriate for me to lead your fight, it is more than appropriate for me to use my voice to amplify yours and to walk with you side by side, to hold you up when you are tired, and that is what I will do.
In Solidarity
Paul Desson-Baxter
Coventry Pride."
www.coventrypride.org.uk/2017/01/13/transgender-kids-who-knows-best-an-allys-response/

Datun · 01/09/2018 14:26

She was on Maria Miller's Committee. You would think that she had acquired some knowledge of the range of people presenting as transgender, rather than swallowing the dodgy assertions of the Trans lobby.

I know the thread has moved on Pam, but AGP was not mentioned once in the entire 98 page report from Maria Miller.

And when I queried it with my MP, she forwarded me the assertion from Caroline Dinedage that the existence of AGP was 'controversial'.

They were being told one thing, and one thing only.

The scandal is, they didn't bother to check.

WomblingWoman · 01/09/2018 14:31

I've posted on the GP thread - AC seems to be doing a hell of a lot of "housekeeping" today wrt their online presence.

R0wantrees · 01/09/2018 15:11

And when I queried it with my MP, she forwarded me the assertion from Caroline Dinedage that the existence of AGP was 'controversial'.

Dr Az Hakeem (Gender Specialist) describes and discusses AGP within the introductory chapters of the book, 'TRANS: Exploring Gender Identity and Gender Dysphoria. A guide for everyone including professionals'
(published earlier this year)
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Gender-Identity-Dysphoria/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnetforum-21