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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What makes men angry with women?

427 replies

Italiangreyhound · 29/08/2018 01:52

What makes men angry with women?

Is this article of any interest? Does it offer any incites?

goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hidden-reason-men-angry-women-over-nothing-chwm/

Thanks in advance if anyone reads it.

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Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 18:25

kesstrel

'Italian WRT evolution having goals, we'll have to agree to disagree. But if you want to read more about the issue, this describes my understanding of it:"

crucialconsiderations.org/science-and-philosophy/evolution/why-evolution-has-no-goal/

Actually. I think I do agree with you.

I think my use of goal was unclear and my thinking muddled. I should say i don't think the species is aiming for the goal but an advancement, an evolution would by nature almost always be an improvement.

Less the survival of the fittest, and more simply the fittest survive.

So biological traits in males that are detrimental to the species should (by nature) not continue. Not because anyone/thing/species is aiming for the goal but because to do things detrimental to our survival should lead to our decline. IYSWIM?

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Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 18:40

Rednaxela

"Men are at risk if they fight other men for dominance/ control. In a "civilised" society it's taboo to fight to establish dominance but the urge would still be there. So they take it out on women instead, who pose no physical risk or threat."

I think this is true.

"Which they know is wrong since it's not a fair fight, which as noted seems to be a hard wired part of being human (the notion of fairness)."

I don't think it is hard wired. Necessarily. It may be cultural.

"So in agreement with the projection/demonisation of women as a sub class, to justify the abuse dished out. But angry as well because they know and feel it is wrong."

Here is my stumbling block men thinking we are inferior yet feel g shame because they know they should not treat us as such. I cannot reconcile that.

NothingOnTellyAgain "They are in charge - they could have it set up differently, so that they get ALL of the benefits -

So why do they bother with toxic masculinty? They must WANT to be this way?"

Personally, I do not see individual men in charge in the same way. Patriarchy is bad for some men on some level yet many feel unable to change society. I really do not think all men want life like this, they have been brain washed in culture to see society in this way. Buy more and more I believe men will begin to see tgis is not the only way. I've met some amazing men, I think they can make a difference.

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SarahCarer · 01/09/2018 18:42

I think toxic masculinity is an excuse tbh

I strongly disagree. As do the suicide stats. Many men are very very lonely, isolated and self loathing.

Italian two other posters have answered your question to me I think 😊. It's the conflict between the desire to think of us as less than human; which was the impression that the social inequality and (I agree with a pp) certain ideologies, gave them initially with the subsequent dawning realisation that we are of equal worth and their entitlement morally unfair. Something (including certain ideologies) tells them that they ought to relinquish space, power and resources that they are not entitled to and they see it as a direct threat from us. Pregnancy would be a key time when this would dawn on them.

Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 18:44

SarahCarerp can you say more?......

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Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 18:44

There might be multiple answers, we might all have a bit of it...

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Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 18:45

I still don't get where this idea of us as less than himsm comes from ( not denying it)...

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Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 18:46

human

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Baumederose · 01/09/2018 20:33

For me, the behaviours are innate. I haven't yet read anything so far to change my mind that it's the way men are programmed.

Society has also directly and indirectly supported those behaviours as they did serve a purpose at one time, before we had starbucks and the nhs.

And whilst those behaviours aren't evolutionary successful now that's only a relatively recent phenomena for the world and men to adjust to.

Equal pay act was 1976, for example. Marital rape illegal 1992. That's literally 30-40 years ago. Nothing at all in the time span of the universe.

Men are programmed, in my view to be aggressive and angry and society paid those behaviours off for a really long time.

Expecting them to be any different, and change innate behaviours in under 30 years is not realistic.

Things have moved on and the world has changed. Men are still operating on the basis of it being the same as it was. They are pissed off about that.

If you were in charge, and felt entitled To take everything you wanted, wouldn't you be angry too?

Who are these women telling me I have to treat them as humans? Respect their feelings? Wash my pants? 30 years ago if you were my wife, I could have forced you to do as I wanted with literally no recourse or consequence. It's a big change and they are pissed off.

Who are men now? What is their role in society?

It's not hunt the dinner, or protect the clan, so what is it? What is their role and purpose? It's a hard question to answer, now.

Hence the crisis in identity being played out.

SarahCarer · 01/09/2018 20:56

I still don't get where this idea of us as less than human comes from By less than human I just mean that young boys see women serving men, being valued (or devalued) for their looks as if they are objects, and being judged by their value to men. Not to mention having less economic freedom and self direction. Because this is the norm as they grow up they expect to experience the same advantages of other men. But then this idea emerges that maybe they have the same rights men do, and men as a sex are in the wrong I'm how they treat women. This harms their identity, their pride, their self worth. It puts them in the position of having to somehow prove their entitlement.
Can we all agree that when boys have grown up with more equal environments where they are actively taught about equality in a healthy way and have seen it modelled they are less likely to pose a threat to womenor to display anger towards women as a class? If true this would offer a lot of support to this theory.

Sedona123 · 01/09/2018 21:01

🤔 who gives a sh*t??? 😂😂😂

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/09/2018 21:06

Well, the women and children being beaten and raped all over the world every day, got a start

👍😂😂😂👍👍 and lolz

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/09/2018 21:07

For a start

Fuxake

mantlepiece · 01/09/2018 21:09

I can’t understand why women are interested in why ‘men’ are angry.

In my experience angry men are a very small percentage of the population and I ignore them.

My twopennorth is that women should be brought up to develop the all important bullshit radar. By parents and teachers if necessary. This would not only save women much distresss, it will save their life in some instances.

Some women put up with shit behaviour from men, this I hope is not interpreted as victim blaming, but will only stop if women are taught to sniff the buggers out at source.

There are Murderers, rapists, thieves etc out there, my opinion you can’t change these people you can just try to keep them out of your life.

Most of these aggressive types exhibit the much talked about red flags. Some women, I would posit most, recognise them immediately. Some unfortunately don’t .

Activate your bullshit radar and teach others to source theirs, shut down the macho aggressive men, don’t give them a date never mind a sleep over.

Here’s to a calm and peaceful life for us all.

Baumederose · 01/09/2018 21:12

and men as a sex are in the wrong I'm how they treat women.

I understand the point but I don't believe this self reflection or thought actually occurs or emerges.

All men have a mother. Lots have sisters, daughters.

If this great ephipany occurred to them, wouldn't there be clear evidence going back decades of the impact and change resulting from this road to Damascus moment? If not a few hundred years?

I'm not being flippant. I just don't see it.

kesstrel · 01/09/2018 21:42

Italian

So biological traits in males that are detrimental to the species should (by nature) not continue. Not because anyone/thing/species is aiming for the goal but because to do things detrimental to our survival should lead to our decline.

That's true, and is true of most species in the wild. But - and this is an important point - most evolutionary biologists believe that evolution stopped acting on humans a long time ago, well before the dawn of civilisation (except in relatively minor ways). In effect, our big brains and our ability to adapt to different environments has led to us being able to create civilisations that allow us to largely avoid the selection pressures that normally eliminate disadvantageous traits. So, for example, we look after our short-sighted children and relatives, rather than them being left to be killed off by predators (and fail to reproduce). So now we have lots of short-sighted people who might well be in trouble if they had to hunt for food.

And in the meantime, our cultural environment - our civilisation - has changed enormously from the small tribal groupings of hunter-gatherers in which we evolved. Traits that were positive or harmless back then (for example, really liking to eat sweet stuff, and eating as much of it as we could find) are now actually disadvantages, because we now have easy access to an unhealthy quantity of sweets.

Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 21:43

SarahCarer

"Can we all agree that when boys have grown up with more equal environments where they are actively taught about equality in a healthy way and have seen it modelled they are less likely to pose a threat to womenor to display anger towards women as a class?"

Sweden is a country where women's rights seem to be taken very seriously.

Not sure this gives answers but if you do take a look, read the info as well as charts or it will be miseading.

www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/WP0KG/the-crime-situation-in-sweden-compared-to-the-us-in-4-charts

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Sedona123 · 01/09/2018 21:50

Excellent post from Mantelpiece.

Someone getting angry with someone doesn't necessarily lead to any form of violence. I also agree that there's usually some massive red flags with a person's behaviour before you get to even anger.

SarahCarer · 01/09/2018 22:53

Baumederose I definitely don't subscribe to the idea that men have a Damascus moment. I'm talking about a nagging thought or feeling that something is wrong. A growing sense of guilt and shame that becomes worse when they become more aware of a woman's vulnerability or conversely when a woman demonstrates equal or superior aptitude in an area the men think is their's. The male reaction may be self loathing, remorse or anger at the woman for 'manipulating' them into feeling this way or 'trying to control them'.

Baumederose · 01/09/2018 23:21

A growing sense of guilt and shame that becomes worse when they become more aware of a woman's vulnerability or conversely when a woman demonstrates equal or superior aptitude in an area the men think is their's. The male reaction may be self loathing, remorse or anger at the woman for 'manipulating' them into feeling this way or 'trying to control them'.

I don't disagree with that entirely.

God I sound like a man hater, but, I don't think the synapses connect in the manner of 'i feel bad for being a dick or less effective than a woman and therefore I feel bad because women are downtrodden and men have more rights'. I don't think the remorse element exists.

It's more of a self centred and insecure reaction - does this make me look bad, has this diminished my status in any way?

I linked to an article previously about the research about how men feel when their wife or partner succeeds. In a nutshell, they hate it and the reaction is one of wanting to diminish the success. They're threatened. So I don't think there is that connection for men that 'women have been hisrorically prevented from opportunities how great my wife got a promotion'; more of a how dare she do better than me stance.

And this is in the context of a supposed supportive loving 'relationship'. So imagine the response of a man not in that relationship to that promotion?

Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 23:42

kesstrel those are excellent points and I shall have to re-think my views. I like your way of speaking, it does make sense.

Baumederose I missed the '...article previously about the research about how men feel when their wife or partner succeeds" can you re-link?

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Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2018 23:48

kesstrel although the fact that bad behavior in men is not rewarded and so may be nothing to do with evolution is actually what I said originally!

So not sure what I am re-thinking!

Goodness am going round in circles a bit!

I guess 'evolution' doesn't really come into it, for good or ill. That seems to be what you are saying and I kind of felt that way before. But I also felt that in a way man's 'bad behavior could' not be part of evolution as it should not cause flourishing. But now it sounds like evolution is not really in the picture either way, according to you, and I tend to agree!

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Italiangreyhound · 02/09/2018 03:00

"n one study, they recruited 32 undergraduate couples from the University of Virginia. Each participant was given a "test" of social intelligence. The participants read five different scenarios describing a problem someone was having at work or home and had to choose between two different pieces of advice to deal with that conundrum. The students were told there was a correct answer (determined by counselors) and their score on the test would measure their "problem-solving and social intelligence."

The researchers didn't actually grade the tests and the participants were not given their own "scores," but they were told their partner scored either in the top or bottom 12 percent of all university students.

Hearing their partners' scores generally didn't shake the participants' explicit self-esteem, or how they said they felt about themselves in a questionnaire.

But the researchers also measured the participants' subconscious self-esteem, by giving them an Implicit Association Test, which gauges attitudes and feelings that people may not want to report through rapid word associations on a computer screen. Those with high self-esteem, for example, are more likely to associate the word "me" with words like "excellent" or "good" than words such as "bad" or "dreadful."

Compared with men who believed their partner scored in the bottom 12 percent, men who were told their partner had ranked in the top 12 percent showed lower implicit self-esteem. There was not much difference in the implicit self-esteem of women who thought their partner scored high and women who believed their partner scored low, the experiment found.

The researchers said that similar experiments held true in the Netherlands, which has one of the narrowest gender gaps in labor, education and politics.

Why the disparity? The researchers write that one possibility is that men are typically more competitive than women and thus may be more likely to see a partner's success as their own failure. Gender stereotypes may compound this effect."

www.livescience.com/39288-men-feel-threatened-when-girlfriends-succeed.html

Not rocket science but kind of interesting to hear the test and see the results without anyone actually grading the responses!

Thanks for links.

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Baumederose · 02/09/2018 07:11

Theres also the studies about men not wanting to have relations with smart women.

www.google.com/amp/www.indy100.com/article/what-men-think-women-smart-intelligence-sexy-psychology-study-iq-science-maths-love-relationships-7954646%3famp

They are weak and pathetic. I have lost almost all respect for them; bar a select few.

Once seen cant be unseen.

Turph · 02/09/2018 10:03

Many men are very very lonely, isolated and self loathing.
Things have moved on and the world has changed. Men are still operating on the basis of it being the same as it was. They are pissed off about that. If you were in charge, and felt entitled To take everything you wanted, wouldn't you be angry too? Who are these women telling me I have to treat them as humans? Respect their feelings? Wash my pants? 30 years ago if you were my wife, I could have forced you to do as I wanted with literally no recourse or consequence. It's a big change and they are pissed off. Who are men now? What is their role in society? It's not hunt the dinner, or protect the clan, so what is it? What is their role and purpose? It's a hard question to answer, now. Hence the crisis in identity being played out.
I agree strongly with both of these statements. I personally believe the current issues are linked to anemoia, a false nostalgia for something that either never happened or that the individual never personally experienced.
Hence incels, traditionalists, reactionaries, religious leaders, etc all harking back to a time when men were allotted a woman as carer, lover and helpmate. We all seem to recognise that as something which happened but there is no evidence it did. Men have had to compete for women's affections since dragon-slaying, love poetry and war were a thing. Even historical rural farmer man, who was largely understood to have been allotted the girl next door, would have had to compete with his peers for the attentions of the best looking girl and might have had to settle for less (and been bitter about it). That said, I think those societies may have been less toxic for men, as the overcrowding wasn't an issue and neither was the endless novelty and relative anonymity of being in a city full of other women to gawp at and desire (and buy, I'm assuming prostitution was more prevalent the larger the settlement). A similar problem occurs with online porn, which is free, endless and varied. Multiple studies have been done on the effects of endless sexual novelty on men who masturbate compulsively to porn online. There is a men's movement to resist it (nofap) as it is recognised to be detrimental, most especially in terms of relating to actual women and successfully gaining and maintaining a relationship with one.
Men truly consider themselves to be more spiritual than women, and can point to all their achievements as proof of intellectual superiority also. One incel wrote posts that made me very uncomfortable, as he pointed out women's ingratitude towards the "invisible" and "beta" men who had built her house, installed its services, built her car, invented and built her TV, created this, created that, toiled for this, sacrificed for that, etc. The love poetry, literature and music written by men for women or about women suggests that many can and do feel deep and complex admiration and love for women (although that is realistically limited to the artists and authors themselves, playing a few songs on your car's radio doesn't make you a romantic). However I do believe there is sacrifice involved in being a man, and it isn't all hedonism at women's expense.
Women, on the other hand, have never needed men's emotional input as much as men have craved theirs, because they have social structures that allow for emotional expression outside the relationship. Many men would prefer the 1950s where women stayed in their world and got their social input from other women (housewives chatting over the fence) and men stayed in theirs (men only pubs) which probably made relationships less challenging as there wasn't so much pressure on a partner to be all things (friend, lover, confidante, etc). I do think male suicide rates are linked to the abolition of male only environments, although this is obviously just one factor, and plenty of those environments were terribly toxic and restrictive.
On this note, men seem vulnerable after divorce or the death of their wife and tend to fall apart as they have nobody to rely on or talk to. Other men avoid them in these situations as if the "failure" will rub off on them, whereas women support each other, generally speaking. Women end up ruined financially (the trend for divorce payouts is a recent one) but have generally got a support network. Likewise women cope with incapacitated men worse. Women do not find emotionally incontinent men attractive. Women on the pill prefer sensitive men with prettier features, ovulating women not on birth control prefer ultra masculine brutes with more pronounced manly features. I've seen women laugh at men for being emotional or crying. Incels and MRAs are convinced women are more likely to leave a disabled man than vice versa but I can't find anything to support it. It makes sense in my head, because while men are put off by women becoming unattractive, women seem to be put off by men losing their abilities and agency. None of this is nice to think about and it makes me uncomfortable. I like to challenge my thinking by reading some crazy stuff, so I might just have been influenced by it.
How does this relate to anger? I think it's the fairness aspect. Both sexes suspect the grass is greener for the other. In an inability to relate to the opposite sex both sexes fail to challenge their suspicions. I also think there's an awful lot of truth in the dehumanisation argument, that men treat us as inferior but subconsciously feel guilty for doing so, and so double down on dehumanising. That explains to me the hugely higher rates of violence towards women in the societies where they are most controlled. This long post might read as pro-men (I've just previewed it before posting) but it isn't; I just wanted to explore some ideas I had on the subject and am happy to be proven wrong about any or all of it. I haven't done much feminist reading so apologies if this is basic stuff.