We are different

[askingquestionsisok]

Is it wrong if me to feel like there are differences between men and women and that's what makes us human?

Aside from equal pay debate (I believe same job, same pay) and similar- I do believe that there are inherent, natural differences between men and women. But it doesn't seem ok to think this or say it anymore?!

I also feel like a lot of 'feminists' use that umbrella to man- bash. Don't get me wrong, I have known a good few awful men, I've also known a good few awful women. We can't tar everyone with the same brush?!

Thoughts?

I have honestly never noticed a great deal of sexism in my time- I'm in my 30's

Really? Wall into any toy store or children's clothes store. Pick up a newspaper. Look at magazines aimed at men and women. Look at books and TV programmes aimed at children. Look at the birthday cards in your local Clinton's. Sexism is all around us, constantly.

Gender

The second part of what I linked before

women are more emotional - some men have rages that cause them to harm men and women and sometimes kill them. Oddly, these rages don't seem to come under the heading of "emotional".

men are physically stronger - yes.

women are better in the home, multitasking, nurturing etc - I'd say there is a significant element of social conditioning to this.

I've never thought is that one gender is more intelligent - pick your yardstick and you can get women being more intelligent or men being more intelligent.

@nauticant

Exactly why I said in general- perhaps I should have said in my experience.

I'd rather be an agnostic about these alleged differences. Once you start acknowledging that they exist, you have to debate exactly what they are, and then we'll argue over how much our society ought to be structured to deal with them. Much better to say "Maybe yes, maybe no, but everyone ought to know how to behave, and we all have to find our own way through the world."

I think there will be differences men and womens personalities because of their biology sometimes yes... knowing you could fall pregnant, dealing with periods etc those things probably have some bearing on the way your personality develops? Even if you took away all the social conditioning the way your body develops might have an impact on how you behave..
I dont think behaviours traditionally associated with women are all down to social conditioning

I never mentioned treating people differently....that is not my belief.

I'm just asking the question- because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

You mentioned natural, inherent differences. I don't think it's possible to say that any differences are 'inherent' at the moment, because girls and boys are treated so differently from the moment their sex is known.

If you take two groups of kids, bring them up completely differently and then notice that their behaviour and personalities differ (on average) you cannot conclude that this is down to inherent differences.

We are biologically different which is what makes us human. This is why in many lines of work- the majority of a workforce would be one gender or the other.

We're biologically different because we're different sexes.

Gender is the social constructs & stereotypes which have been dumped on the sexes.

I think (in general) women are better in the home, multitasking, nurturing etc... I say in general because of course there are exceptions. There are many, many physically strong women and many many great SAHD or main child care givers for example.

The transgender movement would say that if a woman doesn't meet, or accept, the appropriate feminine gender stereotypes then she must be male or non-binary. And vice versa. I'm a lesbian, strong for my size, not remotely interested in having kids or being domestic. The bloke who sits next to me at work does part-time hours to facilitate childcare. That means neither of us is conforming to gender stereotypes but has no impact at all on our biological sexes.

I would say that gender is bollocks.

www.mumsnet.com/uploads/talk/201808/large-342248-39442358-10156077210219440-4113767156972257280-n.jpg

Can't work out how to make this show as a picture, but here's a diagram

I never mentioned treating people differently....that is not my belief.

Yes, but they are treated differently, that's the whole point. There's a huge body of research now proving what's really pretty obvious - that boys are conditioned from birth to be assertive, take up space, etc., and girls are conditioned to be more submissive, domesticated, etc. There really are (as far as I know) no discernible 'personality' differences between men and women that can't be explained by this. So maybe women are biologically better at multi-tasking, but they are conditioned to perform multiple domestic tasks early on which depends that they develop multi-tasking skills.

Whilst the nature/nurture roots are near to impossible to prove, it's suspicious that women happen to be better at exactly the things their socially conditioned to be better at and vice versa.

@toothtruth

I agree.

And I'm genuinely not trying to be antagonistic to any feminists or any human that has strong beliefs.

Genuinely trying to learn and understand how others view these things.

I have sons and I'm wondering if one day all humans will be on an even keel or if it will turn on it's head and my children will be lesser than.

Also, learning that often on Mumsnet- you can't ask a genuine question

This is very worth a read, OP: www.amazon.co.uk/Delusions-Gender-Science-Behind-Differences/dp/1848312202?tag=mumsnetforum-21

@EmpressOfSpartacus

I did say in general, and I hope I didn't offend.

men are physically stronger - yes

Depends on how you define strong.

lifting weights maybe

dealing with pain? no chance.

www.mumsnet.com/uploads/talk/201808/large-435543-dhu1-npxcaeu4ns.jpg

I like this one too. It's about the effects of gender stereotyping

Yep I meant the former...I agree with the pain theory.

I think (in general) women are more emotional, i think (in general) men are physically stronger. I think (in general) women are better in the home, multitasking, nurturing etc. One thing I've never thought is that one gender is more intelligent- I would say this is not based on gender?

For more men kill and rape, driven by rage. How emotional do you want it to get? Look at a football match. The World Cup.

It's nonsense that women get called emotional, when it's men who are more often driven by rage and hate and then cry when their team loses on the telly.

Multitasking. Another one that astonishes me. Men can run countries, multinational corporations, and be stockbrokers, frantically dealing on the tips of their feet, but that's not called multitasking??

Or is it only multitasking when you can peel the carrots and empty the dishwasher at the same time? Funny that.

And it's rather ironic that it's often not feminists who have a downer on men. You, for instance, deciding that men can't be nurturing. I hold men to a far higher standard than you appear to.

The men in my life are nurturing.

My eldest son is in demand, across the family, as someone who enthralls the younger members, for hours.

Or by nurturing, did you mean picking up dirty socks and cleaning out the oven?

How many of the young boys in your life are socialised to nurture?

There have been umpteen studies to prove how we raise our children differently.

I suggest you look at the BBC TV programme no more boys and girls.

By the age of seven the girls felt that the only thing they could do better than boys was look pretty and the only emotion the boys could articulate was anger.

It was shown how the adults and carers around them had subliminally given them these messages.

Undo all the socialisation that we subject our children to, then, and only then, will you be able to tell if there are any innate differences.

If there are innate differences, things that are true even if there were no social conditioning in, say, 70% of women/men, so what?

There is such huge social conditioning we can't tell which is which. There's no point discussing the bit that might be there when there's the huge social conditioning thing going on.

It's like wondering about differences between races. It does more harm than good to theorise what, if anything, is innate and what is societal.

What's the point of that conversation?

@Datun

My (male) partner is one of he most nurturing people I know. My sons are extremely sensitive.

I can multitask when peeling carrots and emptying the dishwasher- but funnily enough at work too

Some of the men in my life have been the most kind, sensitive and caring people I have known. A couple of the women- awful, heartless, cruel etc.

So as I said, in general.

Is it really all because of social brainwashing or is it ok to believe that perhaps we have some of these traits genetically.

@askingquestionsisok I agree totally..there are so many woman who call themselves "feminists" and they just make a mockery of what it stand for. They simply use it as an excuse to have a go at men and its embarrassing for them.
I too have known some horrible men who are chauvinistic and arrogant, but I have been exposed to more women who try to drag down their fellow woman. Whether it be being a SAHM or a working mum, the way they dress, the way they look, the job they do, how they got their job.....it's awful
Men and woman are different, feminism is not about them being the same, but about being treated as an equal. I wish a lot of women ( especially on here ) realised the difference and did not stick their bitterness under the "feminism " umbrella

(Butters second Weetabix)

@Tigger001

I agree- apparently it has something to do with breakfast cereals which went way over my head- obviously I don't spend enough time on Mumsnet to get it...too busy ironing tea towels, crying and fluffing up cushions I guess.

I do appreciate all of the genuine answers and people who are actually interested in sharing their knowledge and views on he topic.

Ha ha @ VickyEadie.

I hate to say 'I told you so', but...

Is it really all because of social brainwashing or is it ok to believe that perhaps we have some of these traits genetically.

You'll never know though, OP.

You do already know, that those traits are not innate to specific sexes. Because the men in your life disprove it.

It was thought that women simply did not have the correct brain structure to understand higher education. Genuinely. So they were barred from it.

Funnily enough, as soon as they were allowed to have further education, they became just as good, if not better, than men.

The same with being a doctor, a lawyer, a professor, an MP, a politician, a CEO.

The novel Lady Chatterley's Lover was described, in court, as surely this is not something you would allow your wives or servants to read? Because women knowing about sex was scandalous. Despite the laws being written that their husbands could rape them with impunity, as long as they married them first.

Just look what a number socialisation has done on women, historically.

And it's being perpetuated today.

Is your bikini body ready for summer, OP?