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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

We are different

501 replies

askingquestionsisok · 24/08/2018 16:58

Is it wrong if me to feel like there are differences between men and women and that's what makes us human?

Aside from equal pay debate (I believe same job, same pay) and similar- I do believe that there are inherent, natural differences between men and women. But it doesn't seem ok to think this or say it anymore?!

I also feel like a lot of 'feminists' use that umbrella to man- bash. Don't get me wrong, I have known a good few awful men, I've also known a good few awful women. We can't tar everyone with the same brush?!

Thoughts?

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 24/08/2018 18:36

askingquestions, well, I've addressed your use of 'general' traits in my pp and suggested to you that you're actually indulging stereotypes because you are steeped in a culture that has taught you to expect them. So perhaps you could come back on that point?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 24/08/2018 18:36

In a thread of (I guess mostly) women- I don't feel empowered, supported or taught.

How the fuck did it get to be our job to empower, teach or support some random Internet bloke? I know it's called Mumsnet but We're. Not. Your. Fucking. Mum.

Acorninspring · 24/08/2018 18:37

midgebabe I don't suppose you have a look to the toddler study by any chance? Or remember where you read it? I would be interested in reading.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 24/08/2018 18:38

I have learnt that feminism seems to be about ridiculing people who don't think the same as you.

Lol. Yeah that is exactly what feminism is.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 24/08/2018 18:38

but then there is 'research' that seems to back up innate differences

Well off you pop and find us some then lovey.

Datun · 24/08/2018 18:38

John Money for one..

John money sexually abused the boys in his care, both of whom committed suicide.

There is no scientific analysis that shows behavioural traits are gendered. They can't be. Because for every woman who has the ones you think she should have, I will show you a dozen women who don't.

Juells · 24/08/2018 18:38

Fwiw, I've only just very, very recently come to the decision that I am a Feminist, which has had a lot to with life experience and learning things I just didn't know when I was younger and didn't really understand what Feminism was.

Yes, that's been my experience as well.

placemats · 24/08/2018 18:40

Empower yourself OP!

Mary of Sweden offers very good support.

I can't vouch for that, as I've obviously burnt my bra.

Datun · 24/08/2018 18:41

I have learnt that feminism seems to be about ridiculing people who don't think the same as you.

No you don't. I, for one, have told you what feminism is.

What you are learning is that we like people we engage with to have at least a basic level of comprehension.

Tigger001 · 24/08/2018 18:41

@Datun you mentioned the movement, so I merely said what the original movement was set out for, which is what I fully respect. It is not feminism to not want men to rape women, it is not feminism to look at stats and identify its more men than woman that commit violent offences and want this to be stopped . That is not feminism, that is normal people both men and women identifying and acknowledging a problem and wanting this to be stopped.

LangCleg · 24/08/2018 18:42

Weetabix Banana Horror
Weetabix Banana Horror
Weetabix Banana Horror

If you say it three times while looking in a mirror the devil will appear...

You rang?

LadybirdsAreBirds · 24/08/2018 18:43

Datun

Do you like being @ed?

Datun · 24/08/2018 18:44

Has the OP been shown the door?

Shocked.

LangCleg · 24/08/2018 18:44

Since this utterly predictable thread is missing only one predictable thing, I feel I should foodify it...

... only 7% of women identify as Weetbixists. Why do we think that is?

Datun · 24/08/2018 18:44

Do you like being @ed?

I have disabled it. So it doesn't affect me.

If I was getting dozens of emails, I think I would be pissed off.

LangCleg · 24/08/2018 18:45

Bollocks (of the unsuckable variety). Fucked it up. Weetabixists.

Neverbeenafeminist · 24/08/2018 18:45

askingquestionsisok FWIW, You come across as similar to me, someone who wants to learn but that may not mean much if they think I'm a troll too x

placemats · 24/08/2018 18:45

This thread will keep me going until Celebrity Masterchef comes on.

It's Friday and I have Wine I'm waiting for my chicken pie and chips to cook in the oven.

I'm baking lemon drizzle cake tomorrow. Because I can.

VickyEadie · 24/08/2018 18:46

... only 7% of women identify as Weetbixists. Why do we think that is?

(Waves hand frantically and enthusiastically) Is it because we're ladies?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 24/08/2018 18:46

Has the OP been shown the door?

The banana horror turned up and he scarpered. Not surprising really.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 24/08/2018 18:47

Serious bit first. One crucial difference is that men are far, far more likely to be violent offenders. Is that socializion, testosterone (which would be a biological factor), simple advantage of strength (but then I think we would see more female offenders) or a combination of all? I'd go for latter.

Of course it's the main reason why we need protections in place.

The second main difference is our innate ability to run under bars if not stick our elbows in ears...

FloralBunting · 24/08/2018 18:47

Tiggar001, mate, those facts are exactly the basis of the need for feminism and women's rights.

VickyEadie · 24/08/2018 18:47

placemats

I'm hanging on to Celeb Masterchef by the skin of my teeth - there's too much pratting about, sending them into professional kitchens (when it's clearly beyond their competence in most cases) for me.

tiredandweary · 24/08/2018 18:47

Settles in to watch LangCleg weetabixing all over FWR ...

ScipioAfricanus · 24/08/2018 18:49

OP, I will admit that, even though I would always have considered myself a feminist ‘(‘I believe women are equal to men’ being my simple starting point, I read Germaine Greer etc. as a young woman), as I got older I would fall into maybe ‘lazy thinking’, especially as the parent of a boy, married to a man, seeing myself as the only one ever tidying up anything (do the different sexes notice jobs (e.g. multitasking) differently, I would wonder), realising how much I wanted to stay home with my child to the detriment of my career (women must be more nurturing, to some extent from a biological drive, I would think), and at my work being told how ‘boys and girls learn differently’ and seeing it in my pupils and my son (scrappy pieces of lost homework vs. colour coded notes produced well before the exams: surely too much of a pattern to be a coincidence?).

It was probably TRAs who made me start to question the lines my thinking was subconsciously running on. Despite my sort of ‘oh men!’ small talk with other women, and the proliferation of ‘women can’t read maps!’ and ‘men can’t remember birthdays!’ comments around me in real life, in the media and in literature, I did not believe that having a penis meant you couldn’t like flowers and pink, and not having one meant you did, so I had to question what other things I was putting down to sex when it made no sense to do so - including the inability to put a cup in the dishwasher. I was alarmed at the threats to women’s rights I saw in some TRA suggestions. I had also been unhappy at the way schools I worked at were swallowing the ‘sex is changeable, gender is immutable and innate’ line, which made no sense to me as a feminist, mother and educator and safeguarder of all pupils in my care. I started to google and found my way here. I mostly read threads here and found them so illuminating.

One thread recommended Cordelia Fine’s ‘Delusions of Gender’ as a starter-read for how gender characteristics could seem innate, and yet be socially created (the brain’s plasticity and our need as social beings to conform to divisions we are raised with being a key part of this). I also read ‘How Not to Be A Boy’ by Robert Webb which gave me insight into what is was like for my husband being born under the patriarchy and really made me see how men suffer under this gender insanity as well as women (I already knew, as a woman, how much we suffered under it, having experienced overt and hidden sexism of many kinds over the years - I am really surprised you don’t feel you have. As I approach my 40s it is now invisibility I have most which is sometimes a relief (though also heinous) compared to the threats and slurs of my youth).

I have just finished ‘Delusions of Gender’ and am having a massive kick to my backside for thinking that a few kitchen toys and gender neutral clothes given to my son could really undo the gender bias and gendering all over society. Why didn’t I realise this when he, aged about 4, mentioned that ‘daddy has a real job’ because I worked part time and his father in an office (despite my husband always treating my job as equal in all respects, even if it’s part time and much less lucrative than his)? So much of what I put down to ‘surely innate?’ is shown to be ubiquitous societal influence at an incredibly young age.

I can’t recommend that book enough for making you question the hidden assumptions about sex vs gender which the status quo and controlling powers would rather we didn’t even see. My husband is now reading my copy and I’m going to order ‘Testosterone Rex’, the follow-up.

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