We are different

[askingquestionsisok]

Is it wrong if me to feel like there are differences between men and women and that's what makes us human?

Aside from equal pay debate (I believe same job, same pay) and similar- I do believe that there are inherent, natural differences between men and women. But it doesn't seem ok to think this or say it anymore?!

I also feel like a lot of 'feminists' use that umbrella to man- bash. Don't get me wrong, I have known a good few awful men, I've also known a good few awful women. We can't tar everyone with the same brush?!

Thoughts?

Hi, I'm the poster previously known as neverbeenafeminist.
I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational but I do have problems with that statement as much as I have problems with the statement 'Transwomen are women' I've tried reading most of the links posted on here but still can't see the evidence. Is your statement an accepted universal truth that all feminism is built on? Can I not be a feminist if I disagree?

My suggestion would be:
Why not start a new thread saying
a - what statements you disagree with
b - why you disagree with them
c - show your evidence to your disagreements

I literally can't work out your angle. i know I've had a heavy day out yesterday and am a bit tired today so why not spell out your argument and then let others respond?

But genuinely, do you search to see if they are credible, have engaged before etc.

Me? No. I cannot speak for anyone else.

Many of us have well-developed troll sensors, however.

Ok

Troll sensors

So the general consensus is that the OP posted to get a rise out of feminists? A plant, a man or a troll? Or all 3!

why not spell out your argument

Oh, if only.

Oh, if only.

I know, right!

One day.

I think it's helpful, for those who haven't posted before, to actually do some reading and get a gist of the whole debate before coming in with a "this is what you're all doing wrong" post. Of course, there's nothing to stop them just slapping down their opinions, but then they're not necessarily going to get a sharp inward gasp of incredulous breath and an "Ermagawd, you are sooooooooooo right, OP" from the rest of the posters, either.

Getting pissy because you've not enlightened us all with the lightening bolt reaction is pretty much the hallmark of someone who didn't come here to discuss, but to instruct.

anyone who talking about lazy stereotypes like 'man bashing' gets my hackles rising. It's not 1975

Surely gender is in some ways personality and most scientists would accept that personality is partially innate
Why are some people not gender conforming. I'm not but my children and grandchildren generally are.
How do you explain the differences between siblings regarding gender conformity?

I'm not sure what you are arguing for here, either. Yes personality is largely innate, but it's not gendered.

I would also say that personality can obviously be affected by nurture. One person's aggression is another person's competitive sport.

But behavioural traits vary from individual to individual. So you can't say they are specific to one sex.

Hi Thingybob, I am a scientist, my post was written from a scientific point of view I don't know if anything I say is accepted as a universal truth in feminism, but the scientific consensus is that very very little of what society deems gendered behaviour is innate. By the same token, I wouldn't suggest that, apart from overt rubbish like "boys don't cry", gendered socialisation is consciously done.

I can't really comment on whether or not you have to hand in your feminist card, and I have no clue why you would believe I would start any sort of onslaught, how odd!

I have two sons. They are different in their interests, emotional expressiveness, emotional intelligence, levels of physical activity and skill... I could go on

I know they've both been subjected to the same pressures to adhere to gender stereotypes and have reacted in different ways to that.

I honestly believe that who they are has been shaped as much by their personality and whether they are the older or younger than whether they are boys or girls.

I know that if one of them had been a girl, my own conditioning might have tempted me to interpret their behaviour in gendered terms. I don't think I could have helped it.

Thingybob, it's probable, I think, that part of our personality is nature. You see it in families, where personality traits seem to appear and reappear. There's some fascinating research about separated twins which suggests this.

And it's also likely that the body we live in influences our personalities as well. Our brains are very plastic and patterns of thought and behaviour shape our neural pathways. Are those different for women and men? Or for each individual?

All of us are individual and impossible to segment. Is my passion for animals a genetic trait? An indication of an innate female urge to nurture? The influence of my family as a child? We have no way of knowing.

Our acculturation into gender roleles is very powerful - it starts at birth and doesn't ever stop. All we can say is that neuroscience tells us that male and female brains are basically the same. Beyond that we are a product of our culture, our environment and our personality traits.

All of us are non-binary, we are all an idiosyncratic mix of human possibilities. Every trait that we might assign to "masculinity" or "femininity" are products of how our culture views gender roles.

Male and female bodies are different, and that difference is material reality. Beyond that, we are just people.

Thingybob you've had some good answers already and I'd agree with all of them. Yes, personalities are all a quirky mix of nurture and nature. I have three girls and there are fascinating similarities between them that are family traits, but each of them is also different to the extent that you just could not pin point 'female' behaviour in them beyond stereotypes.

In fact a lot of what we consider 'female' traits I see much more clearly in my son.

Floral

In fact a lot of what we consider 'female' traits I see much more clearly in my son

It is so much a matter of how we perceive certain traits and then label them

One of mine watched Strictly come dancing with me and comments on the dresses. He's also the one who plays rugby and doesn't like to talk about his feelings. He likes babies and children and did not like Lego. Is he a girl or a boy?

I don't know a single human being, adult or child, who "conforms" to gender stereotypes. Not a single one. They might conform to a few stereotypes, they might conform in a lot of ways, but not in ALL ways. We all know this. Why can't we accept that gender non conforming is actually normal and just get on with being human in this difficult world of ours?

My most "girly" friend, who loves fashion and makeup and perfume, is also a violent thug who channelled that into becoming a black belt in karate. Looks like an angel, has the soul of a great white shark.

Most definitely. My son loves dressing up. He loves fine detail collecting and sewing. He's not remotely sporty. Good at maths. Very good with younger kids. Enjoys computer games.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets

I wanted the receipe for piccalilli and would love to know what the yellow stuff is that binds it. However I didn’t ask because I was equally terrified that you were offering a receipe for piccalilli vodka

Re innate - I know what the word means but I would argue that while some things may have been innate for me at age 6 they are not so much at age 16. So, is anything actually innate or does it change with socialisation? So for me innate does not equal immutable.

would love to know what the yellow stuff is that binds it

Why didn't you say?

It is mustard powder and turmeric, with flour to thicken. You can cook runner bean and use practically the same sauce to make runner bean relish.

www.goodhousekeeping.co.uk/institute/cookery-videos/pickles-relishes-and-chutneys/how-to-make-piccalilli

Just not vodka. Lines need to be drawn and that is one.

Runner bean relish! Mind blown 🤯

How, at 47, am I just realising piccalli (and Branston) are not the only pickle!!

But yes, please no, to any form of pickled vodka.

Thanks muchly for the link

AllDayBreakfast wrote - "It's like the military draft. Most men had to literally risk life and limb to get the vote and yet it's still seen as a huge injustice that women weren't just given it on a plate without providing military service (which they eventually were, at around the same time the average man got the vote)."

Your belief, about the vote being linked to military service for most men, is not supported by the facts for the UK.

The UK has had two periods of military conscription for men: 1916-1920 and 1939-1960.

Most British men were not required to do any military service to obtain the vote because most categories of British men already had the right to vote by 1884, which was 32 years before conscription. All British men won the right to vote in 1918, including men who had not done any military service.

Rufus you can make parma violet liqueur with the sweets

(Perks up curiously)

But genuinely, do you search to see if they are credible, have engaged before etc.

Nope, though if I've seen them say wanky things before I may remember them doing so (personality and attitudes do tend to shine through over time).

Getting pissy because you've not enlightened us all with the lightening bolt reaction is pretty much the hallmark of someone who didn't come here to discuss, but to instruct.

And also often a sign that you have a penis. I mean sure, some women do it too, but men do it a lot.

RE personality being largely innate, sure, though aspects of personality can be either encouraged or suppressed by upbringing. Societal ideas about gender tend to be a massive part of what's doing the encouraging or suppressing (mostly suppressing the traits seen as undesirable based on sex). I honestly have no idea what the person who made the original comment about this thinks, or is trying to say, in terms of the relationship between the two - certainly the idea that people are born with the type of personality that "fits" their gender is demonstrably incorrect (if it wasn't society wouldn't need to spend so much time telling girls to sit still and be nice and boys not to cry).

AllDayBreakfast wrote - "It's like the military draft. Most men had to literally risk life and limb to get the vote and yet it's still seen as a huge injustice that women weren't just given it on a plate without providing military service (which they eventually were, at around the same time the average man got the vote)."

American blokes trying to put British women in their place ought really to mug up their British contextual details. Starting with the fact that we do not call it the "military draft".

Yanksplaining?

Yanksplaining?