WtF can i do about this? Lecherous men harrasing my daighter, to the extent that she doesnt want to go out on her own!

[Moanslice]

Any advice massively welcom. My dd has just turned 13. She is 6ft tall and looks 16/17. When she goes out she get cat called, propositioned, chatted up... maybe 8 times out of 10. So, she has stopped leaving the house

I persuaded her to take the dog out today. Within 10 minutes she had a man kerb crawling her from behind. She said was he saw her face he must have realised how young she is and drove off

She cant NOT ever leave the house on her own, but this is awful. She isnt the kind of girl that would tell them to fuck off. Or say anything

Royally pissed off

Definintely self-defence classes, I can't tell you how much confidence it gave me in my early twenties. Luckily have only had to use it once to block someones arm, nothing too sinister or violent. It's not really about the moves (as you don't want her to ever need to use them), but it will give her confidence.

This happened to me when I was 13. It was like a switch had been flicked and overnight I went from being completely ignored to being constantly harassed by men. It is terrifying. I developed the glare and would tell them to Fuck Off. It worked most of the time, but I'm afraid I was assaulted (mainly 'just' groped) and flashed at on a depressingly frequent basis. I had an hour commute on public transport to school, and had a lot of independence, which I didn't want curtailed so I never told my mum what was happening.

So I'm not sure what advice I have, and I don't want to scare you more than you already are, but the threat of actual assault is very real. An alarm of some kind might help?

Honestly, I'd just try and arrange for her to be accompanied as often as possible, because what can you do? There are just too many creeps around, and honestly some of them won't care that she is 13. I know it shouldn't be down to women and girls to manage the problem, but let's face it, it is. Go with her when she walks the dog. Don't encourage her to try and deal with it, she's too young. Protect her as much as you can.

Can she wear a webcam and get footage of these creeps, including car registration where possible? In case using a phone would make her even more vulnerable. How utterly horrific. I would also call the police non urgent line for advice, no one should have to put up with this.

I want to cry reading this, so sorry for you and your daughter. I agree with bzz, I would ask the local police for advice.

God we should be tackling this but we never do. We never confront men about their sexes appalling behaviour. Generation after generation putting up with this shit.

I did call the police first time this happened. Which thinking about it, must have been when she was 10 or 11. I didnt recognise it 'just' as street harrassment at the time...thought it was more sinister...as the car trailed her for a while

I think i will call the police actually and ask for their advice

What did the police say when it happened when she was 10/11?

Your poor dd. I fucking hate that this is happening to her.

I think because she's so young, you have to think about building her confidence outside the situation, as I think her answering back, calling police, filming them etc is just too risky.

So I'd definitely enrol her in some sort of self defence or martial art class. Drama does wonders for confidence too. Also look at what she's reading - try and get her some feminists to read, Caitlin Moran is brilliant and will,hep her see that she's not alone.

I wish I could solve male violence for her though.

Threads like this make me feel all vigilante.

As a 15 year old plus I got this an awful lot. I used to just ignore completely. Blank them like they don’t exist. After all they want a reaction so ignoring worked well for me. A single touch would warrant a police call though. Now I’m in my 30’s I take a more aggressive approach.

telly the police took it seriously. They came and took a statement and went looking for the guy

Maybe reporting EVERY SINGLE incident is the way to go

Teach her to be more angry than afraid. How to scream at the top of her lungs and come up with amazing insults. Fuck fuck fuck being delicate and dignified about this. Obviously situational awareness is important but she can absolutely smack that feeling of shame right back into their faces.

Teach her to be more angry than afraid. How to scream at the top of her lungs and come up with amazing insults.

Which is all fine until someone punches her in the face. Which happens.

Ugh. I am so sorry for your poor daughter. How awful for her. Men are pigs.

I would recommend some sort of self defense course because it might help her to feel more confident and capable, and that might mean that she felt more able to shout at the pervs. I think anything that teaches women and girls to trust their instincts and act decisively (and to turn fear into anger so as not to freeze) is useful in all areas of life.

However, I also think that as she is a child, you shouldn’t make her go out on her own right now while she’s afraid. If she needs someone to go with her to things, can you go, or another family member? Does she have an older brother or sister who can accompany her to places? I know this seems a bit drastic and might make life a bit logistically tricky, but I think it is your job to protect her and help her feel secure. I think if you can build her confidence then she will eventually feel happy to go out on her own again, but I don;t think she should be marooned in the house because she doesn;t want to go out alone.

The best thing you can do for her is teach her to scream at the top of her lungs 'I'm 13 you pedo!' (but only if there are other people within the vicinity of course). These things are often done by a relatively few number men. Drawing attention to it can help prevent repeat occurances. Offer to follow from a distance the first few times if it gives her confidence.

She could start taking photos of faves and number plates, less confrontational than yelling at them. Anything that makes her feel empowered I guess will help?

Which is all fine until someone punches her in the face. Which happens.

Exactly. There was a video a few weeks ago of a woman in Paris being smacked in the face because she told the man sexually harassing her to shut up.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45005069

Which is all fine until someone punches her in the face. Which happens.

Men tend to do shitty things no matter how we act

Oh, OP, this is so awful - my love to you both. My eldest is a similar age and I dread the day this happens to her.

I would back the suggestion of some kind of martial arts but NOT because it will teach her how to fight. I've done some kind of fighting skill all my life and never had to use it on the street (so far, although I was more than prepared to deck someone just last week) because it's the situational awareness that saves you - knowing how to read an opponent, when to run (almost always) and so on. It doesn't really matter which discipline you choose, in the end, but look for a club which has slightly older teenage girls, plenty of female instructors, and a good sense of camaderie and respect for each other. Knowing how to kick an attacker firmly in the nads is great, but having role models and friends to bring up your sense of self is priceless.

I'd also read The Gift of Fear with her if you can.

Yes the difficulty is that you don't know the motivations of each man nor what he is capable of. And the ones that aren't actually violent benefit from this (our generalised fear).

I ignored but of course some become angry if you ignore them as well.

It's a really difficult issue and as old as time I'm sure.

Certainly lots of the suggestions here are good but it makes me so sad that girls are still a. subjected to this shit and b. as we can't (and society won't) do anything about this, we put it on the girls to learn somehow to deal with it.

This is a massive part of growing up as a girl that is so distressing, turning from a person into an object. Turning from going around relatively unnoticed to being harrassed. So many respond by covering themselves up, starving themselves, trying to stop or slow down the changes to the bodies that are correctly located as the cause of it all.

This is the age at which girls confidence drops off a cliff while boys continues to rise, it's no coincidence.

Then we get told to "empower" ourselves it's just nonsense it really is.

I was looking for self defence / female self defence the other day I thougth I could do it with the DDs.

I'm sure this used to be a thing? With ?women runnign classes for other women and stuff? Sort of quite relxed all women togetehr saturday afteroon type things.

Now all that is on offer is proper martial arts.

We did try that and although in theory it was welcoming in practice you coudl tell that a lot of the men and boys thought it was for them really, one of those things where it's fine on paper but you just feel not quite, like not quite comfortable?

Anyway it seems a shame that there's none of that stuff that used to happen, it's all proper uniforms and disciplines and generally male instructors and levels and stuff round here. What happened I wonder.

She used to compete in Judo, although she has given up now. I dont think she is scared because she cant defend herself. I think she cant cope with how it FEELS. That is something that i struggle to put into words, but i know exactly what she means. She isnt unconfident in any way

It's humiliating and makes you feel powerless. Whether you react to those feelings by getting angry or scared or anything else is all valid and none of them are positive emotions to have elicited on a regular basis when you're just going about your business.

I really hated this, so much and I feel for your DD so much. The way men treated me as soon as I hit puberty was what made me a feminist from that age. I thought just who the fuck are they that they can do this? It's not right. And it isn't.

It's a man problem but of course men in general and society in general have zero interest in looking at why men do this, punishing them when they do (whether socially or through the criminal justice system), or trying to stop them any other way.

There are two types:

• The ones who don't see the target as a person at all, it's all about them, showing off in front of their mates, just doing what blokes do, whatever. I have read on here that when women have confronted these sorts and said look she's really upset how do you think it feels to be on teh receiving end of that they are apologetic. The question here is WHY these men don't see women / girls as people in the first place, why they see them as mere props rather than human beings

• The ones that like making girls / women upset, scared, confused etc. There are lots of these around and it's not always sexual - they get a kick out of scaring women with aggression and / or sexual harassment. These ones are dangerous IMO - they hate us.

Kerb crawlers: take the registration number of the car/van.
Pass to the police.

I'm not an advocate of self defence courses - unless you commit to regular practice sessions and updating your skills. Otherwise, you are unlikely to have the muscle memory and split second reaction to bring the moves into a real life situation. Over time, you forget what you've learned.

There is a big gap in the market for safety role-playing sessions for girls, led by women. Discussing what's going on when they are approached by leches. Looking at the variety of coping strategies in real life situations. Making small changes that most women have absorbed unconsciously so that they do not look like 'victims' - (walking purposefully and quickly as though you're late for meeting a friend; pretending to answer a call on your phone; taking off at a sprint in the middle of the man's opening gambit).

Maybe some enterprising woman will apply for a grant from Children in Need and get these sorts of confidence-boosting sessions going in the future?

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Maybe someone should get a grant from Children In Need, to educate boys