MN is a 'Hate group' apparently.

[KlutzyDraconequus]

Apologies for spoiling your Sunday, but i thought I'd best let you all know, according to some on an external site... Everyone here is part of a hate group..
I had no idea tbh.

From my reading of peer reviewed papers on the subject (am academic) there does seem to be something different about the body imaging bit of the brain in people with dysphoria. But there is no such thing as a 'lady brain' or inherently feminine, gendered characteristics. Gender dysphoria doesnt therefore seem to be about gender at all, but rather a sense that the sex of one's body is misaligned to one's deep perceptions of what it should be.

Yes, that's my understanding having read the same papers as you I think, ocelot.

Ah but if you have pants underneath your sturdy pyjamas will your lady bits get enough of an airing?

Gender dysphoria doesnt therefore seem to be about gender at all, but rather a sense that the sex of one's body is misaligned to one's deep perceptions of what it should be.

So why do we treat this so differently to people who have anorexia, believe that their life would be better if they had a limb cut off or people in the past who believed they had swallowed a glass piano?

I really don't know Ladybird - I just know that people who have it go through years and years of hell. My ex used to say that they felt like they were a walking lie - not that they told lies, but that they WERE a lie. This poor, poor person. Nothing I could say about how lived and valued they were made any impact, and some former friends really were just HORRIBLE to them. That's also real - up there with the homophobia I encountered 30 years ago (am bi).

I am no expert but I don't think it is an illness as it's seems like a structural difference in the brain. I also have many friends and family with AS ADHD etc - so I look at it as part of the rich rainbow that is neurodiversity. So aceptance, tolerance and finding supportive ways forward, yes; yielding women's rights, no. Not all objections to the 'transwomen are women' line are hate speech; nor are all transpeople a threat. Some fetishists however, are.

That was a good epic post, ocelot.

I wonder if some of the push for self ID might be driven by the 'wendies' fearing that brain imaging might produce a diagnostic tool which would differentiate between them and those with dysphoria?

I think most of us feel similarly - problem is the Wanking Wendys are so emboldened at present! And that they appear to be the majority (the fact that lots of transition GD sufferers try to live quietly under the radar adds to this effect).

I know a larger than average number of transwomen (all early transistioners) and none of them are engaged in the current debate. None of them support the demedicalisagion of the GRC either (but wouldn’t mind it being a little quicker/cheaper/less stressful).

I’m also suspicious that the attempts to shut down research are due to the fetishists clinging onto the coattails of the dysphoric not wanting the difference between them to become a diagnostic reality!

I mean, what other debilitating condition is approached this way? Generally, those who are struggling/suffering want as much research/information on their condition as possible...

Well look at exactly who got the research shut down. Do we think our friend Hailey here would be diagnosed as having gender dysphoria?

None of them support the demedicalisagion of the GRC either (but wouldn’t mind it being a little quicker/cheaper/less stressful

I think this is what we need to get out there. That we are not arguing against things being made easier for genuine DS people, and we have huge amounts of sympathy for them. We need to advertise the fact that most of those who are shouting loudest about amending the current system and bringing in self id, are those who know they would not get one under current rules. Because they do not have GD, they are AGP, and this is why the medical analaysis. Some of them openly admit they have applied and failed. This needs to be said more, I think.

DS!! Autocorrect fail. Of course I mean GD!

That's interesting. In terms of brain imaging, I don't know if it could ever be a diagnostic tool. I am not a specialist in this area. I think people would probably fear being labelled as 'ill' or freakish (which is a reasonable fear, given how they are often treated). It's perhaps less painful (and GD is acutely painful) to imagine that you really are a woman than that there is a structural difference in your brain which means you will never be entirely one thing or the other. But I think (and the science is very much in its infancy here so I am open to reading new studies, as long as they are properly peer reviewed studies) that it makes more sense to talk in terms of a third group of people who may be intersex physically, or who may have this neurological difference which causes them to experience their bodies differently. This would account (respectfully) for the deep sense of wrongness which many transpeople have, without ending up in the ridiculous position of returning to defining femaleness in terms of damaging stereotypes. Those are just my thoughts on it anyway. I work in a university environment and would be very hesitant to voice these opinions publicly now - which is really worrying.

A sidebar here for any real life MN Wendies: we know that NAWALT, that there are warm-hearted, good intentioned Wendies and do not steal people’s friends or wank in ladies’ changing rooms & toilets.

boatyard

I do love mumsnet and I am browsing and commenting on things of interest... no it isn't a 'hate group' but there are some people on here who just want a row and say things to be really unsupportive.. they take over feeds with nastyness.

I have seen this several times. To be honest I think they have nothing better to do with there days 😀

their

A propos Hailey and influence: Haley, seen in the video here, is one of the people PLOSONE and Brown university took as an expert (over the peer review process) in criticising the Littman study. This is now who and what dictates acceptable academic thinking from: twitter.com/mrkhtake2/status/1035938499520806914

Oh, how unthinking and light-hearted I was with my comment yesterday about why Select Committees and their ilk prefer unevidenced anecdote because it is authentic, lived experience or a simulacrum of it rather than boring old academic endeavour or clinical experience.

cinders

You can

a) comment to the person concerned on the thread
b) report to MNHQ

That can be true cinders. I also think there's a lot of truth in something someone said up thread about those who have been bullied misinterpreting being bumped into as more bullying. That can be true of transwomen, but it can also be true of
women because almost all of us have come across male violence and misogynistic silencing tactics. So risks to female only spaces and conversations touch on something very sensitive and BOOM! It becomes an us versus them thing, which can sometimes be unhelpful in terms of negotiating a third way.

Mothers are a hate group in that they hate it when anything presents a threat to their children.

Yes, and also other people's children. Just children generally. And women. Women and children.

We cOuld also sport the Mumsnet Haircut

Is this like "T*RF bangs"? Because in British that's a blunt heavy fringe and my hair doesn't do those.

I have wrote on feeds to the men who have posted that's they are just about to get eaten by the wolves on here.. and most of the time they do..

I don't even entertain
brexit
Feminism
Trans feeds

They always turn sour. People forget (well the very opinionated ones) that everyone is entitled to an opinion but sometimes there is a lot of tunnel vision....

I have posted a few times and thought Iv had it with that post so I have contacted MN to remove as I can't be arsed with the hassle of people who just want an argument.

I'm glad it's not just me 😀

This is really interesting ocelot41.

So does the feeling of bodily wrongness mean that sufferers believe they must be women; or is it that "woman" is the only other category available?

So is the belief "I am wrong therefore I must be something else and the only available something else is female"; or is the wrongness, "I have male genitalia, but I am really a woman"?

The other question is: if men or women with body dysphoria find comfort in living as the other sex, whatever that means, but are self-aware enough to realise that their biological reality has not changed, what are the benefits of a GRC? Is it a psychological comfort or merely a practical one, (it stops confusion if the person in a dress with a female name has matching paperwork)?

How is mental distress at a perceived physical wrongness, eased by identification documentation? Because if dysphoria is the cause of transsexualism, how far should society go in enabling the belief?

We try not to allow anorectics to starve to death; we don't cut off the legs of people who hate their limbs; we don't detonate Armageddon for those who believe themselves deities. We recognise material reality while providing support and compassion for the delusional. People should be able to live with the identity which makes them most content, and do that without harm or prejudice. But should we reshape society around them, denying reality for a small percentage of the population? And should we do this if it impinges on the rights of other people?

I believe that gate-keeping before undergoing serious, life-changing surgery is entirely appropriate. Nor do I believe that having the surgery should be the only pathway to appropriate documentation, provided that serious mental health supervision is a condition of that documentation.

Those who choose not to have the surgery are free to present any way they wish. They don't need female paperwork to go about their lives in a dress or a space suit, as long as they respect those spaces which are reserved for women.

They are free to call themselves anything they wish, but retain their biological identity where it is important.

Insisting on retaining male genitalia AND demanding female paperwork without any sustained mental health intervention is surely indicative of fetishism rather than true mental distress?

ocelot and dancelike , both exceptional posts, thank you

How is mental distress at a perceived physical wrongness, eased by identification documentation? Because if dysphoria is the cause of transsexualism, how far should society go in enabling the belief?

This is the key question I think.