Ladies bathrooms and trans acceptance

[RosettaStoned]

After reading many trans threads on here and other articles online I have come to realise I may have some internal conflict.

I'm generally a very open-minded live and let sort of person, always have been and I can't stand the thought of a person, be it man, woman or whatever, being unable to have their human rights acknowledged and dignified.

However I am opposed to self-identification as I feel it is prone to all sorts of abuse. That's just how I feel and various evidence backs up my concerns.

Anyway, I was reading an article (published 2 years ago) written by a woman about ladies public toilets and the fact that even when they were invented, women of the Victorian era were simply too embarrassed to use them in public.

Tying the point in to trans-issues, the author of the article goes on to say:

So where does that leave the transgender woman who would much rather endure the dirty looks of the ladies' room than the potential fists of the men's room? In a brutally unfair position, unfortunately. They are pioneers, and pioneers have never had an easy time of it. They live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them, just as ladies' bathrooms once didn't exist because society wasn't ready for women to pee in public. It sounds ridiculous, but that's how it is.

I must state that I don't wish to see a male in a female space unless there is a legitimate reason. But the author's comment about "transgendered people (sic) live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them" got me questioning my own belief system.

Will my children or my grandchildren (or anyone for that matter) one day look at me as someone with bigoted, old-fashioned views because self-ID will have a more common place in society as time goes on?

I'm perhaps not making myself very clear and before anyone jumps on me, no I am not calling anyone who opposes self-ID bigoted or old-fashioned. I am trying to get across that society changes all the time. In ten years time, self-ID may well and truly be as normal and everyday as wearing socks or drinking a brew. And society will adapt to it whether we want to or not.

What I'm asking is, what if the author makes a valid point? What if one day we do look back and see we were once 'out of touch' with the modern world? I dunno.... has anyone else questioned this?

Trousered I know -

The idea that equality legislation is all for the benefit of women who are protected and coddled and never for men is an MRA thing.

The law covers both sexes.

Men can and have used laws that were created with a view to correcting structural inequality / discriminaiton against women. Sometimes to disadvantage women over one of the few things where we were better off! (That motor insurance thing years ago).

They have also used it around women getting in cheap or free to clubs and things I think (which wasn't much of a boon for women, given that the reason it existed was to try and encourage women to come and thus act as a "lure" for men!).

There are also public toilets that lots of men aren't be keen on using -

Certainly cottaging is a "thing" and there are still some toilets in London that are quietly known for it.

Whichever way you cut it, this is a bloke thing. they are the ones causing issues here. Seeing bogs as suitable venues for sexual activity (remember that awful meme with a glam transwoman in the gents saying "do you really want me in with your boyfriend"!!!), being the group that the large minority of perves are from (wankers, flashers etc), being the group that the large minority of nasty men are from (the ones that enjoy making women feel frightened / intimidated / uncomfortable), being the group that had members who violently police masculine norms.

So really it's up to them to sort it out.

FWIW I also think that men will come in because they can. If they can use the ladies and it's nearer why wouldn't they? I once got off the tube when heavily pregnant at a station with toilets and joined the queue for the ladies with 2 other women. Waited for maybe 10 mins, one of the other womnen was pg as well, you know how desperate you get! Anyway we were all looking at each other like WTF are they doing in there. May have knocked? Anyway eventually tube driver swans out having obviously just been having a lengthy stinking crap. He couldn't be bothered to walk the 2 mins to the mens - or maybe the men's was a bit manky - anyway - he felt entitled to use the ladies, sit there for ages, pg women waiting etc. So, this sort of thing will increase. And what can you do? They give a smug look, we don't tend to challenge men around this stuff, esp not when pg.

are there stats on attacks in loos based on straight/trans/gay?

I too would like to see stats on how many men who claim to be women actually experience violence in the men’s loo. Then how does those stats compare with other men who do not claim to be women. Of course being given funny looks by other men, or hearing derogatory comments is not the same as actually experiencing violence. Even if they did experience violence in the men’s loo significantly more than other men, it is not reasonable to expect women to welcome them into ours. They need to target men with their campaigns and make them more accepting of nonconforming males in their spaces, or campaign for a 3rd space for themselves. If the real reason they wanted into women’s spaces was fearing violence in the mens then they would do these things, the fact that don’t speak volumes.

I too would like to see stats on how many men who claim to be women actually experience violence in the men’s loo

Another person who would like to see those stats.

The whole toilets thing gets focussed on but really it's about way much more.

Prisons
Hospital wards
Shelters
Then stuff like
Women's awards & prizes
Women only jobs & positions
Which in turn leads to
Initiatives and efforts to increase female representation in all sorts of areas having stats that may not give the whole picture (e.g. that recent thing where someone at a ?meeting said if parliament was 50% female, with the female 50% all transwomen, would that be right? And the answer was yes that would be great!)
Then of course there is
Sport
And one that seems trivial but is very irritating is the transing of historical lesbians / gender non conforming women (sexist in the extreme and yet another round of erasure of women's contributions)
And all the ??? around children

The toilets thing comes up a lot and I think it's because it makes women who complain sound petty + it's easier to make the argument (male violence so why can't we come in with you and you're saying we're all perverts - is how it is framed). Making a good argument around prisons, hosps & sports is much harder.

It's not about toilets though. It's about an erosion of all the stuff women have fought to get in the first place, up to and including the very words that are used to describe us as a group. It's about our specific needs as a sex class being over-ridden and removed - and about our biology again being seen as unmentionable. Whole thing is misogynist as all fuck TBH.

It's not up to women to shield men from men. It's for the men to sort their shit out and accept there are many ways to be a man. This is a mans problem to solve, not a womans.

By man I mean a person born with a penis- not the gender usually assigned to people born with a penis. And for women I mean a person born with a vagina, not the gender that has been assigned to such a person.

I mean feminists have said for yonks that a big problem is that women are still not really, not entirely seen as full "people".

And here we have programs on the television asking "what is a woman anyway" and we're told it's a movable category, it's not based in anything material, it's a feeling, that anyone and everyone who says they are a woman, is a woman, and that's that.

The fact that society in general and all the politicians etc are so quick to say ok yes I agree woman is just a feeling, girl is just a feeling, just shows how little personhood we still have. Our most basic fundamental thing - that affects our lives from the day we are born (and even before) - that has resulted in massive specific difficulties across history and the world - that thing is apparently only a feeling in our heads. That is to deny the massive often violent oppression of women and girls through history and across the world. As someone said >> "enjoy your erasure".

And the worst thing of it all is that 99.9% of them are lying. They know fine well what a woman is and what a girl is. They just don't deem them important enough to have their own words, their own name.

The reason TRAs are shouting so loudly about women's toilets and being allowed to use them to feel safe is because it sounds harmless to everyone else.

It's only when you pull the argument apart, you start to realise that it makes no sense & isn't true, and it then dawns on you that it's ALL about VALIDATION.

Validation that they're just as much a woman as females are.

I'd at least respect them if they were honest about the real reasons they want access to female spaces.
As it is, they really don't care about women or their feelings. ALL they care about is being validated in their pretence, and they don't care who they trample on in the process.

I think most people who are paying attention understand that sex segregated public toilets and changing rooms are just as important to the women of London, New York, and Paris, as they are to the women of El Callao Province, Peru.

@ScienceIsTruth I do wonder what the real reasons are. Surely it must be more than validation?

Surely it must be more than validation?

Don't think so, no. I think that's pretty much it. Being generous. Of course I think some anti woman activists, both trans and otherwise just enjoy invading women's boundaries and making them uncomfortable.

It is also the ultimate male dominance display for some.

YY. For male people who have been made to feel inferior by other males, they can have power over people (women) they consider inferior in turn.

It seems so.... I don't what the word is.... sad??

I've only been reading up in TRAs in the past few months and mostly on MN. So the reasons for this whole movement are unclear to me. Also has there been a spike in TRA and since when? It seems to be they are everywhere now. In my own real life existence I have only ever encountered 2 trans people that I know of. One was a cross dresser who lived down the road from me. His wife never knew until the day she came home and found him dressed up to the nines. In public he was always just Eddie, a really nice bloke.

When I started my first Saturday job at 16 many moons ago, there was one customer who used to come in called 'Christine'. Everyone happily obliged and called her Christine. That's my only experience of RL trans people. Why does there suddenly seem to be thousands when it used to be a rarity afaik?

Have they always been this way, or is it since proposed changes to the EA? Sorry I'm not as fully informed as I should be. I just keep reading/hearing about what it is TRAs want and no idea why there are now so many.

I also wonder if social media wasn't around would it be as prolific as it is. Or would the current TRAs not really bother with it all (and presumably stay aligned with their birth sex) because there wouldn't be much point? The internet gives everyone a voice I suppose but it leaves me wondering how many of the TRAs are legitimate

I don’t believe that trans women are at any greater risk in the gents than any other male in there. Hope Pink goes into loos all over the place and never has any problems.
Wanting access to women’s spaces isn’t pioneering, it is a land grab.

I also wonder if social media wasn't around would it be as prolific as it is.

I don't think so.

The internet gives everyone a voice I suppose but it leaves me wondering how many of the TRAs are legitimate

I think a lot of the anonymous social media accounts, particularly in the US are how shall we say, part timers or fantasists. You can be anything online.

it's ALL about VALIDATION.

Yes. That is why TRAs don't want gender-neutral spaces. Those spaces do not validate their oh-so-precious identity.

When you word it like that Terf, it kind of has similarities to that of a toddler's temper tantrum or teenage rebellion.

The more I read the more I am convinced it is about the removal of women's boundaries. It is about making sure that there are no spaces where women (the cunty types) can escape from men if they need to. It is about reminding women that we are not deserving of safe places and that we must give men constant access to us or they will hurt us. And it scares me.

However tin foil hat this may sound, if we continue along this road, we will get 'But you knew people with penises went in that toilet, why didn't you wait until you got home? Why were you out?'

The more I read the more I am convinced it is about the removal of women's boundaries.

Trans activism wouldn't have the power it has without male support. There are a lot of men who don't want women to have and power, liberation or even space to themselves.

When people finally realise that this is a Men's Rights campaign with huge financial backing, and not a grassroots human rights issue at all, it will swing back the other way.

However tin foil hat this may sound, if we continue along this road, we will get 'But you knew people with penises went in that toilet, why didn't you wait until you got home? Why were you out?'

This is absolutely inevitable.

When a woman is assaulted and raped it's standard fact that if it gets to court (and a massive percentage of the ones reported don't), there will be every possible avenue explored as to what extent it was the woman's fault that a man attacked her. What was she wearing, where was she, what time was it, what was she doing, can it in any way be construed as something she knew put herself at risk, because women are responsible for male violence .

So yes. Using facilities under self ID will absolutely, inevitably, be interpreted as you knowingly putting yourself in front of a person with a penis, and therefore holding responsibility for what that person did to you. When Target, the US store, introduced self ID the voyeuristic/sex harassment crime rate against women more than doubled. In the first three months.

, if we continue along this road, we will get 'But you knew people with penises went in that toilet, why didn't you wait until you got home? Why were you out?'

I agree.

Look at the thoughtless privilege of this statement. No idea that for DV victims single sex spaces are the few places where there is any respite from abuse.

twitter.com/MsEmilyTired/status/1029439891522945024?s=20

Also this person has misunderstood Rosa's tweet and is an American who doesn't know what a refuge is, barging into this UK conversation.

I was very nervous about posting that so I am glad to see that I am not alone in thinking this way.