Ladies bathrooms and trans acceptance

[RosettaStoned]

After reading many trans threads on here and other articles online I have come to realise I may have some internal conflict.

I'm generally a very open-minded live and let sort of person, always have been and I can't stand the thought of a person, be it man, woman or whatever, being unable to have their human rights acknowledged and dignified.

However I am opposed to self-identification as I feel it is prone to all sorts of abuse. That's just how I feel and various evidence backs up my concerns.

Anyway, I was reading an article (published 2 years ago) written by a woman about ladies public toilets and the fact that even when they were invented, women of the Victorian era were simply too embarrassed to use them in public.

Tying the point in to trans-issues, the author of the article goes on to say:

So where does that leave the transgender woman who would much rather endure the dirty looks of the ladies' room than the potential fists of the men's room? In a brutally unfair position, unfortunately. They are pioneers, and pioneers have never had an easy time of it. They live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them, just as ladies' bathrooms once didn't exist because society wasn't ready for women to pee in public. It sounds ridiculous, but that's how it is.

I must state that I don't wish to see a male in a female space unless there is a legitimate reason. But the author's comment about "transgendered people (sic) live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them" got me questioning my own belief system.

Will my children or my grandchildren (or anyone for that matter) one day look at me as someone with bigoted, old-fashioned views because self-ID will have a more common place in society as time goes on?

I'm perhaps not making myself very clear and before anyone jumps on me, no I am not calling anyone who opposes self-ID bigoted or old-fashioned. I am trying to get across that society changes all the time. In ten years time, self-ID may well and truly be as normal and everyday as wearing socks or drinking a brew. And society will adapt to it whether we want to or not.

What I'm asking is, what if the author makes a valid point? What if one day we do look back and see we were once 'out of touch' with the modern world? I dunno.... has anyone else questioned this?

I honestly believe societal attitudes change as the generations go on

Of course. But that implies that it's always a positive progression. Historically, no, sometimes societal periods and fads are very negative for that society, not positive. And as a pp said, that also implies that people should be passive, fatalistic observers believing that others know best, rather than using their own sense of right and wrong, and standing up for what is fair and right.

I think this is probably the last hurrah of misogyny. The trans movement has exposed how shallow the 'progress' really has been for women, that misogynistic attitudes and beliefs never went anywhere, they just for a while became inappropriate to talk about. Now there's a currently fashionable way to let it all hang out, and there it is in plain sight. But it's already led to many women who had never really thought about women's rights or misogyny, to see it for themselves, start taking it seriously and take action to protect women's rights - me for a start. I think this may lead to a women's rights movement of a strength that hasn't been seen in decades, and who knows what that may achieve.

What I'm asking is, what if the author makes a valid point? What if one day we do look back and see we were once 'out of touch' with the modern world?

Do you think that in the future we'll realise that humans can change sex OP?

Cos that's the only thing that makes welcoming the people meeting the stonewall definition of Transwomen into the ladies loos make any sense

I honestly believe societal attitudes change as the generations go on

Not always for the better though. I am shocked at the level of racism that is now tolerated in the name of 'free speech', and the growth of the alt-right. I don't think it would have happened 10 years ago. I think society has divided itself into sections, whereas before we were maybe a little less tolerant overall, but there were fewer extremes. Now we have people openly flaunting their right-wing credentials while in the other corner we have people talking about how it's literal violence to misgender your pet. There just doesn't seem to be a consensus anymore. I go on twitter and on one hand, I see people openly saying that all immigrants should fuck off back home and I then scroll down and see someone saying how it's so problematic that we call neo-nazis thick because that's ableist and shows our educational privilege. It's just a bit mad imo.

Peakpants - I don't use twitter but what you described is pure madness. I think you're right if I understand what you are saying - that is that in a bid to become more tolerant as a society we have created extremes either side of the spectrum. People are moving away from centrist views and becoming more polarised. Forgive me if I've misunderstood your point.

In response to ReluctantCamper, I think it's damn near impossible to change sex unless you could alter DNA in terms of chromosomes.

I read the Stonewall definition of transgendered and it gives a load of descriptors as to what transgender can mean but no mention on changing sex

What I'm asking is, what if the author makes a valid point? What if one day we do look back and see we were once 'out of touch' with the modern world?

So will we also start validating all the other things you can identify as? Age, race, country of origin? Why do we vilify Rachel Dolezal who identifies as black and see this as an insult to real black people, but when Danielle Muscato identifies as female, it means she literally IS a woman and always has been? Why do we accept that Stefonknee Woltsch is a woman but not a 6-year old? Age is an observable fact, but so is sex. You will always have outliers- you will have intersex people, but you will also have people who are 50 but their bodies appear much older or much younger. Why can't we identify as a different age and have that recognised?

As I said on another thread, we need to get a grip. If we accept that it's possible to change sex, then we have to accept that we can change race and age too based on what we identify as. The point is that we can't change any of it and we just have to accept that. What we can work on is getting rid of all the 'meanings' that are associated with sex, race and age. These are all socially constructed, harmful and exclusionary and I would happily see them destroyed, leaving just neutral facts.

RosettaStoned yes, you are right, that is my point. It's becoming much more polarised.

So will we also start validating all the other things you can identify as

Very valid post. I don't know who decides where the line is drawn or how one goes about determining it. In relation to my original post, I have no idea how this whole thing will play out and I would hate for anyone to view me as a bigot now or in the future. I mentioned my concerns regarding trans rights activism to my male, left wing friend at the weekend, just in discussion and he almost looked at me with contempt. I don't think he has looked into the issues as it's not on his radar at all. His immediate response was 'how does that effect me?' And when I explained that it probably wouldn't much as he is a man he said 'people can be whatever they choose to identify as'.

I must admit a year ago I would have had the same view and seen no harm in it. Upon explaining self-ID to him or trying to, his response was along the lines of 'what has that got to do with you?' then had a go at me for being 'angry' which I genuinely wasn't feeling angry, I just felt he was missing my point left, right and centre and didn't understand my view-point on it. He then said if I felt so strongly about it there's ways and means to make myself heard (he wouldn't even listen to my reasoning properly) so I gave up speaking to him about it. Even liberal blokes close their ears to his issue.

I feel like a) he now thinks I am completely bigoted which I'm not and b) pissed off that he didn't even care to listen to my view as he kept butting in as I was explaining myself. Fucking hell.

I would hate for anyone to view me as a bigot now or in the future

Really, who the fuck cares?

If you have made a rational assessment and believe you are correct then people who view you as a bigot can be ignored until/ unless they come to their senses, or unless they need to be lobbied

It's what you think that's important

then had a go at me for being 'angry'

Ah, you weren't being nice OP

Try womaning harder

Shaming and silencing tactics work well against women, we've been well socialised to them.

Don't let it get you down.

You're right Camper - who does really care?
It's true about polarisation though, it can alienate people and I certainly don't want to be alienated from people I thought were friends over this matter which is deeply important. I've only ever met one other person who feels openly about self ID as I do and I was relieved I found someone in RL who had the same concerns.

It’s ESPECIALLY liberal blokes who close their ears to women’s safety. In their eyes women should just STFU because they’re so fucking privileged and make way for the real victims. If they feel uncomfortable about male bodies in their spaces they should educate themselves. I think underlying it all is a hatred of women which they are now free to indulge in to their hearts content, as long as they can justify it by claiming the woman in question is a ‘TERF’.

That's exactly how he made me feel Peakpants. But anyway this post wasn't really about him. It was about the rest of the populace that thought like him. And will us 'TERFs' be seen as dinosaurs who couldn't hack the modern social landscape?

I have to admit all these labels are annoying though

You're spot on, Knicknack

I'm not a terf.....

I'd really suggest reading the pinned post at the top of the board OP. Terf is considered an offensive term in these parts

I just consider it woefully inaccurate

Just to point out I don't agree with the terminology, hence I put it in apostrophes. I don't agree with much of the terminology that gets bandied around. I think it's infantile and offensive.

I think we should be allowed to use the term TERF to describe what others are calling us. We just don’t use it as an insult to other users. To say the word is 100% banned is idiotic when lots of users have it in their usernames.... Seriously. Let’s not encourage more idiocy and let people relay what others are calling us.

What if one day we do look back and see we were once 'out of touch' with the modern world? I dunno.... has anyone else questioned this?

No. I don't doubt my position for a minute, Rosetta. Because it's based in material reality, supported by logic, science and what we know about sex offenders

There's a famous line from the film Field of Dreams "if we build it they will come". In the film it's inspirational. Buy I use it to make the point that everything we know about sexual predators tells us that if we create opportunities, they will take them.

Even were every transwoman a saint, Self-ID creates a perfect window of opportunity for sex offenders. And although, of course, most men who identify as women are not sex offenders, we do know that half those currently in jail are.

Self-ID allows every exhibitionist, voyeur, paedophile and rapist into women only spaces just by using the magic words "I identify as a woman".

Self-ID and criminally irresponsible policies like those of the Girl Guides will inevitably lead to a cascade of scandals, court cases and banner headlines. Within a decade the medicalisation of gender dysphoric children is going to make thalidomide look like a dinner party.

And all of these dismal outcomes stem from the misogyny that saturates genderist ideology.

The way I see it OP, is that we just need to ground ourselves in reality and the here and now.

The society we have now is sexist, frequently misogynist and sees far too many violent and sexual assaults on women (and children) by males. FACT. What will be right in the future, or in some utopia is pure speculation, but here and now we need single sex provision and to reduce the attacks on and discrimination against women.

So that is why for me, the answer here and now is single sex provision and third spaces.

It is lovely and kind and idealistic to not want to alienate anyone and for eveyone to be happy together, but the reality is that not everyone is as kind as considerate you try to be, which is why we have these problems, and those areshole people are the ones we have to protect each other from.

Your male friend is not being kind and considerate to all groups, he is not sitting down and agonising with you over how to square the circle, nor does he care about alienating you, he says what he thinks and dares you to argue, so why afford him more than he affords you?

People like him see your niceness as a weakness and use it against you. They don't respect your views and they are why we cannot just let eveyone 'just be'.

Blame the angry violent men, blame the piss takers, blame the paedophiles, blame the bullies, blame the abusers, blame the lazy and selfish who look the other way and turn a blind eye and enable the abuse.

Because they are the ones fucking it up. Not you. They are just angry and resentful because you see what they don't want you to see and demand better of them. And they can't or don't want to give it. Push the shame back where it belongs - on them.

Fuck, that's a great post, Seafret.

Trans Exclusive Radical Feminist - if I break that down it doesn't apply to me. I consider myself a feminist but nothing radical - I would just like to live in an equal society where women are allowed the same privileges as men and aren't exploited or unfairly treated based on their physical sex. I would go as far as saying I want equity over equality perhaps.

Trans-exclusive - I have nothing against transsexuals or transgendered people and absolutely believe and uphold they have the right to live their lives as they see fit, in peace as long as they don't harm others in the process. So I am far from exclusionary. The term 'TERF' doesn't fit me nor the majority of people. But I can't censor language and if someone appropriates that term to me then so be it. I find it offensive as it stuffs people into a box they don't belong in and is a massive misrepresentation. Almost a character assassination. But I don't believe anyone has the right to censor the words cis or TERF. I just think they are utterly ridiculous.

Great post @seafret.

Do you think this whole thing will die a death? If so, how? Or so you think it will become part of society that we are forced to accept? I honestly don't know what lies in store for the future. I have young children, I don't know how this will shape their future. I don't know how it can be debated properly if no one will listen.

shucks prawn thanks I have been trying to write posters and stickers (and buy sticker sheet) all evening so all my thoughts are charged up and a little raging.

Fuckers like that make me so angry.

Would that be fuckers like my friend? I must admit he did piss me off. I wasn't angry with him, I blame society as a whole and he's just one piece in it.