Ladies bathrooms and trans acceptance

[RosettaStoned]

After reading many trans threads on here and other articles online I have come to realise I may have some internal conflict.

I'm generally a very open-minded live and let sort of person, always have been and I can't stand the thought of a person, be it man, woman or whatever, being unable to have their human rights acknowledged and dignified.

However I am opposed to self-identification as I feel it is prone to all sorts of abuse. That's just how I feel and various evidence backs up my concerns.

Anyway, I was reading an article (published 2 years ago) written by a woman about ladies public toilets and the fact that even when they were invented, women of the Victorian era were simply too embarrassed to use them in public.

Tying the point in to trans-issues, the author of the article goes on to say:

So where does that leave the transgender woman who would much rather endure the dirty looks of the ladies' room than the potential fists of the men's room? In a brutally unfair position, unfortunately. They are pioneers, and pioneers have never had an easy time of it. They live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them, just as ladies' bathrooms once didn't exist because society wasn't ready for women to pee in public. It sounds ridiculous, but that's how it is.

I must state that I don't wish to see a male in a female space unless there is a legitimate reason. But the author's comment about "transgendered people (sic) live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them" got me questioning my own belief system.

Will my children or my grandchildren (or anyone for that matter) one day look at me as someone with bigoted, old-fashioned views because self-ID will have a more common place in society as time goes on?

I'm perhaps not making myself very clear and before anyone jumps on me, no I am not calling anyone who opposes self-ID bigoted or old-fashioned. I am trying to get across that society changes all the time. In ten years time, self-ID may well and truly be as normal and everyday as wearing socks or drinking a brew. And society will adapt to it whether we want to or not.

What I'm asking is, what if the author makes a valid point? What if one day we do look back and see we were once 'out of touch' with the modern world? I dunno.... has anyone else questioned this?

"For example, it may be hard for a trans women without a GRC to bring an equal pay claim. "

Erm, equal pay cuts both ways. There were a group of men who brought a case recently-ish (can't remember where).

From ACAS:

"Employers must give men and women equal treatment in the terms and conditions of their employment contract if they are employed to do:

'like work' - work that is the same or broadly similar
work rated as equivalent under a job evaluation study (see: Recruitment)
work found to be of equal value in terms of effort, skill or decision making."

The idea that laws are written so that ONLY women may bring equal pay claims and men may not is a massive sodding great lie.

If the person has a GRA they are legally a woman anyway so why can't they bring a claim?

I would also argue that they are far more likely to be discriminated against for being trans, which is covered in discrimination laws.

Oh and also -

Changes to the laws around tribunal fees for claiming discrimination against employers have meant that the number of cases has dropped through the floor. Women rarely claimed before and now there are massive barriers. I can find an article if you like.
So really, a transwoman finding it difficult to bring an equal pay claim against their employer would be in the same boat as a woman - ie it's fucking difficult so don't bother - welcome to womanhood

The idea that women do this stuff all over the shop is also a bit MRA TBH >> the idea that women are "protected" in society. It's a lie and a reversal.

PS I get paid less than the men I work with - I am teh same grade, have arguably more responsibility, and always get excellent performance reviews.

What do I do about it? Well I've raised it and got a load of old flannel. It's difficult to prove - we don't work in a job where you do the exact same thing for the exact same pay. So I do what most women do - I've been seething quietly for a couple of years and am leaving. No big-shot lawyers, no "protection", just a standard boring everyday story.

I have had this in other jobs as well.

Structural pay inequality is real but it's hard to prove if you aren't in a job where it's "the job = this money".

@thatdamnwoman no, I'm not American. It's not disingenuous to quote something directly from an article which is all I did. 'Pioneer' was the authors choice of words, not mine. I just wondered if anyone who has taken a stance on self-ID (as I have) may one day question whether society would view them as bigoted and behind the times of society moves towards shared sex spaces that were once private.

Sorry I though that was clear from my post and my follow up posts.

Private is probably the wrong word in that last post. Got distracted by my kids mid-typing. segregated by sex is probably the better choice of words.

may one day question whether society would view them as bigoted and behind the times of society moves towards shared sex spaces that were once private

I’d be happy to share female spaces with males as soon as they all learn to show respect for females.

Working towards respect for women is what would be progressive.

I agree there @jellyfrizz but I'd still prefer single sexual spaces as well. Respect for women, an eradication of toxic masculinity and single sex spaces plus unisex ones for gender-neutral/trans folk.

Argh that's reads completely wrong. I don't want an eradication of toxic masculinity and single sex spaces...

It was meant to read as 'an eradication of toxic masculinity. And (I want) single sex spaces as well.'

I'd still prefer single sexual spaces as well.

I felt the same and tried to figure out why I thought that way. It's because women are physically abused, body-shamed, period-shamed etc. If there were no threat of abuse (physical or emotional) I don't think I'd have a problem sharing with males.

I got what you meant Rosetta.

I don't think we're anywhere near a point where all men respect women so that also seems the fairest way to go to me.

I think people should go to the toilet appropriate to their genitals. Toilets aren't about hair styles and breasts. If some people with penises find other people with penises intimidating and intolerant they should take the issue up with them and call them bigoted and intolerant not try and push in to our spaces.
The word bigot has been bandied around so much it's become meaningless anyway and now just means "someone with a different opinion to me".
You get those laughable Tshirts stating "I hate and won't tolerate a b c d e f g h and bigots" worn by people with no sense of irony

I think you’re extremely typical of an awful lot of women - on MN and IRL - who start off very liberal and “who cares” but as soon as they have to consider the implications and consequences become much much less tolerant. But are internally conflicted about “being on the wrong side”. I’m just like you, for instance. I think I’m quite averagely typical.

I also think that when you say

Even liberal blokes close their ears to his issue

it is the opposite and ESPECIALLY liberal blokes close their minds to it. Not their problem, see. Women’s issue, innit? Trans hysteria, live and let live, blah blah.

But that’s their massive male privilege showing. They’ve never experienced half of the every day sexism and intimidation women and girls get.

And I’m averagely average about what I’ve experienced too. Nothing too bad, nothing to scar me or make me properly afraid. But enough to make me mad as hell and have some fucking empathy. Which ‘woke’ blokes seem to lack.

I work in London. Now, they're not wearing make-up or any other signifiers but I've seen a lot of young men with 'man bun' hairstyles, wearing loose linen shirts and a sarong or similar, moving, unmolested round various stations and exiting, unbattered, from male washrooms/lavatories.

Is it:
i) it's That London;
ii) the flip-flops rather than high heels or stereotyped-feminine shoes;
iii) toxic masculinity is associated with washrooms at particular hours of day, specific venues etc.?

I know Alex Drummond feels we should be behind their bold experiment: This Trans Woman Kept Her Beard And Couldn't Be Happier

However, I wonder if Alex's energies and activities would be better spent if they were targeted at expanding the "bandwidth of how to be a woman" and eroding the masculine behaviours that mean that shared spaces with men are deemed unsafe for people like Alex.

Thing is most men don't want to share with women either.

The cultural norms around things where you are undressing / in unusual situations like in bed in hospital / etc in the UK are that you do it with own sex (and many really don't even like that and would prefer to be alone).

That's one of the reasons that single sex wards in hosps are supposed to be the norm - because neither sex likes being mixed in with the other in that type of situation.

That's before you even get to risk which is pretty much one way (women are far more at risk from men than vice versa).

Example. I spent a couple of nights on a mixed ward at 18. It wasn't a high risk one so staff just popped by every couple hours. I was the onyl female on the ward. None of the men did anything but I felt pretty uncomfortable. Two did just sit there staring at me - it felt quite unnerving especially in a nightie in bed! But this is the sort of thing we find hard to articulate. It's not illegal, and men say "you're saying we can't even look at a woman now!" but to many women this type of thing feels at best uncomfotable and at worst intimidating / threatening.

Oh my gosh, Nosquirrel, I couldn't have put that better myself. It bothers me that men, decent men with wives and daughters and sisters would turn a blind eye to this nonsense.

My male friend said to me "I'll tell you what does bother me - the fact we have homelessness in this day and age". So there you have it, female issues are trivialised because someone else always has it worse off. My response to him was that homelessness doesn't directly affect him (what, with his paid off mortgage and his really good severance pay after being in a senior role at HSBC for number of years and the fact he can now pick and choose when he works, not to mention numerous far-flung holidays a year with his wife).
And whilst homelessness is awful, to me my friend was just virtue-signalling, not to mention minimising the impact of what is happening to women and children at present. I have always believed myself to be left wing, I still am but what I can't stand is the amount of lefty/liberal bullshit that makes way for this crap.

There's a saying I hold true, which I think of regarding trans rights activism. "If you make way for good excuses, you make way for bad ones".

NoSquirrels

Same here

Which is why it makes me laugh to be accused of being rabidly anything; let alone Right Wing

I’d be happy to share female spaces with males as soon as they all learn to show respect for females.

Exactly.

When two women a week aren't being murdered by the person who is, or once was, supposed to love them.

When you can open up the BBC News app and there isn't at least one new daily story involving male sexual or physical violence.

When women and children stop being sexually assaulted and abused by men on a quite frankly horrific scale.

When women's bodies are not seen by society as belonging to everyone but them.

When we don't have situations where the very person who has been women and the government that women are bigoted for being concerned about having male bodied people in their spaces, is then found to be engaging in the exact behaviour that women were voicing their concerns about.

Maybe when that day comes.... Maybe we can begin to discuss women and men sharing intimate spaces.

Until then. No. Just no.

So there you have it, female issues are trivialised because someone else always has it worse off.

Is anyone dismissing trans issues as trivial? If everyone believes twaw, how come their issues aren't ignored in the same way women's are?

Is anyone dismissing trans issues as trivial? If everyone believes twaw, how come their issues aren't ignored in the same way women's are?

Because it's so cool and on point to be all inclusive, that common sense goes out the window

Lol I think you know the answer to that

TW are like women but in all the ways that matter, better and more important. For some mysterious reason.

Nothingontelly

"Fists in the men's bathroom " is something that my sons (17 and 12) have never witnessed. Is this because they don't go where drunk men are likely to be? Are they particularly lucky not to have seen this? They present as typical boys and have used the men's since 6/7 ish? I'm not doubting that fights happen but are there stats on attacks in loos based on straight/trans/gay?

For example, it may be hard for a trans women without a GRC to bring an equal pay claim. Her employer discriminates against her as they perceive her to be legally female. However, she is legally male - so no discrimination etc.

This is laughably stupid.

There's public toilets and public toilets. It seems to me that people are using the fact that there may be violent men in certain public toilets at certain times as a reason why they should be in the women's loos in debenhams. When the men's in debenhams would be very safe for all male people, even children.

Zutt

Oh I don't know - all those Cotton Trader shirts and the aggressive wearing of leather elbow patches on cardigans