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Original poster

Ladies bathrooms and trans acceptance

155 replies

RosettaStoned · 14/08/2018 21:12

After reading many trans threads on here and other articles online I have come to realise I may have some internal conflict.

I'm generally a very open-minded live and let sort of person, always have been and I can't stand the thought of a person, be it man, woman or whatever, being unable to have their human rights acknowledged and dignified.

However I am opposed to self-identification as I feel it is prone to all sorts of abuse. That's just how I feel and various evidence backs up my concerns.

Anyway, I was reading an article (published 2 years ago) written by a woman about ladies public toilets and the fact that even when they were invented, women of the Victorian era were simply too embarrassed to use them in public.

Tying the point in to trans-issues, the author of the article goes on to say:

So where does that leave the transgender woman who would much rather endure the dirty looks of the ladies' room than the potential fists of the men's room? In a brutally unfair position, unfortunately. They are pioneers, and pioneers have never had an easy time of it. They live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them, just as ladies' bathrooms once didn't exist because society wasn't ready for women to pee in public. It sounds ridiculous, but that's how it is.

I must state that I don't wish to see a male in a female space unless there is a legitimate reason. But the author's comment about "transgendered people (sic) live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them" got me questioning my own belief system.

Will my children or my grandchildren (or anyone for that matter) one day look at me as someone with bigoted, old-fashioned views because self-ID will have a more common place in society as time goes on?

I'm perhaps not making myself very clear and before anyone jumps on me, no I am not calling anyone who opposes self-ID bigoted or old-fashioned. I am trying to get across that society changes all the time. In ten years time, self-ID may well and truly be as normal and everyday as wearing socks or drinking a brew. And society will adapt to it whether we want to or not.

What I'm asking is, what if the author makes a valid point? What if one day we do look back and see we were once 'out of touch' with the modern world? I dunno.... has anyone else questioned this?

OP posts:
seafret · 14/08/2018 23:37

I think it will die a death in the end. But if it does not, it will be not be because women agreed to all this, it will be because women are intimidated by violence and sexism form men (and some handmaidens)

Same old, same old. But we can never give up.

Apollo440 · 14/08/2018 23:37

It's not just about toilets. That is the most trivial aspect. It is about ceding women's places in academia, politics, scholarships and sports. It is about being able to define yourselves and your experiences as a distinct group. If you are happy for trans people to represent and speak for you, then stand aside. Simple as that.
I'm a bloke and I think what is happening is an absolute outrage and I'm amazed at how polite you all are.

seafret · 14/08/2018 23:39

yes Rosetta I was thinking of him! and all those like him.

Is he on a forum right now, worrying and wondering if he is kind enough or nice enough or if he is hurting people? I bet not.

Materialist · 14/08/2018 23:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seafret · 14/08/2018 23:47

Toilet issues are not always trivial Apollo440 but I take your point re sport, politics etc. The whole thing is a huge problem.

I perosonally welcome any stand you want to make in support of women. It takes the heat off us just a little and men are more cautious about taking on other men. Hope you will be stickering and speaking out too.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 14/08/2018 23:47

Rosetta, the word "radical" in radical feminism doesn't imply that it's extreme. Radical comes from the Latin word radix, meaning root. Radishes come from the same root.

Radical feminists use the root of class analysis to understand the oppression of women.

It was the only form of feminism that was around when I was young. I - like you - was surprised to learn that I now qualified as a radical feminist. I always thought I was just a feminist. But I soon realized that my feminism qualifies as radical because it's based on the roots of feminism, that I know the patriarchy creates a system where men as a class are always on top.

The feminism that came later - liberal feminism - has no coherent intellectual basis. It glorifies camgirls while shutting its eyes to the harm done to sex workers (among other things) and is solidly focused on male approval. It's pathetic.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 14/08/2018 23:51

One thing that irks me is the statement that feminists want equality. We don't. Equality would presumably insist that two men a week be murdered by their female partners. I don't want women as a class to behave like men as a class. I want liberation!

BarrackerBarmer · 14/08/2018 23:56

consider myself a feminist but nothing radical - I would just like to live in an equal society where women are allowed the same privileges as men and aren't exploited or unfairly treated based on their physical sex

Sounds pretty close to the definition of radical feminism, OP!
Radical in this context doesn't mean wacky or militant or extreme. It means 'root', as in, getting to the root cause of why women are exploited. Which as you have beautifully pointed out, is because we are the female sex, the group that make all people.

I've met many women who understand this and probably don't realise that this is really the crux of 'root' feminism.

I've not met any radical feminists who would exclude trans people from society, their rights, or from anything they would be entitled to as a member of their own sex.

All rad fems I know are accepting of all female people into female spaces, and that includes those who call themselves trans.

So to recap
Radical doesn't mean extreme, it means root
Radfems don't exclude transpeople.
We just recognise sex for the tangible reality it is.

I've never met an actual 'terf', just honest women who are truthful about sex and who get called terf by others.

Original poster
RosettaStoned · 15/08/2018 00:03

I never knew what the term Radical meant Blush I always mistakenly associated it with extremes of feminism. I appreciate the explanations given as to what it means. I still disagree with the trans exclusion part. It's not exclusion for the sake of being nasty. It's about protecting those who are vulnerable.
That's my position on wanting equity more than equality.

Thanks to those who take the time to reply and enlighten me.

OP posts:
Original poster
RosettaStoned · 15/08/2018 00:06

Thanks for your support Apollo

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 15/08/2018 01:27

There is no evidence to support the statement that transgenders are met with fists in the men's room.
In fact a transgender person took selfies in the men's loo fully kitted out in wig make up and tight clothes for a project they called, does this look right, or sommat, and the men ignored them.
Men who cross dress have used the men's loo for years without a problem so why the claim of fists?

TransplantsArePlants · 15/08/2018 06:10

"They live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them, "

What, is that women and girls you are talking about? Too right.

Once that's all sorted, then come back to me

WibblePod · 15/08/2018 07:09

Self-id can pretty much be summed up as 'All women's safe spaces will be reserved for women and girls.. and anyone else who says they want to enter them'

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 15/08/2018 07:20

There is no evidence to support the statement that transgenders are met with fists in the men's room.

From what I can gather, males are very accepting of transpeople.

Male transpeople want to abolish female only spaces, not because they are banished from male facilities, but because they want to be in the women's.

Bespin · 15/08/2018 07:24

thebewilderness

as always peoples real life experiance maybe different to your expectations of it. having been arrested and had to leave a male toilet early in transition and having known other trans woman who have been assaulted in toilets then I find your statement to be untrue. thankfully these assaults happen rearly but they do happen. knowing at what point you are no longer safe in that genders toilet is a hard thing to judge

Hangingaroundtheportal · 15/08/2018 07:28

So where does that leave the transgender woman who would much rather endure the dirty looks of the ladies' room than the potential fists of the men's room?

Women: it's up to you to sort this mess out. Now move over and start letting male bodied people, penis and all, into your spaces. You can give dirty looks if you must but we would rather you were just nice about the whole thing.

Men: you can carry on beating the shit out of anyone you don't like, we wouldn't dream of actually doing something to try and get you to modify your behaviour in society so that people can be safer.

jellyfrizz · 15/08/2018 07:57

having been arrested and had to leave a male toilet early in transition

You were arrested? Why? I keep hearing that there is no law about which toilets people use.

PeakPants · 15/08/2018 07:58

Bespin I don’t doubt your experience. And assaults by trans or trans presenting women on natal women do happen too. Thankfully they are also rare but they do happen. Why is it more important for trans women to avoid rare assaults than it is for natal women to do so?
The solution is obviously third spaces. There is a conflict of interest between trans women and natal women and it can only be resolved by giving trans people an alternative place to use.

Bespin · 15/08/2018 08:00

sorry not arrested it should be accosted it's still early

jellyfrizz · 15/08/2018 08:02

Sorry that happened to you Bespin.

Bespin · 15/08/2018 08:05

PeakPants

the third space option if you can tell me how that will work and how it will be enforced without saying that's for you to sort out. I would be happy to listen. but no one seems to have a answer to that because you need to bring something in that does not prevent one section of society from accessing services. this I feel is true on all sides.

longtimelurkingtrans · 15/08/2018 08:06

TheBewilderness wrote
There is no evidence to support the statement that transgenders are met with fists in the men's room.
I'm also not buying that. As a gay man I've had plenty of scuffles in the mens toilet for the cheek of going for a pee.
Just for the record there is still no way I would use a ladies toilet, If I can't use the disabled when presenting I just don't use that venue.

Floisme · 15/08/2018 08:11

Bespin I am very sorry that happened to you and for anyone who is assaulted.
But the people who are being bigoted here are men.
Let me say that again: the people being bigoted are men.
I'm afraid I'm sick and tired of this being presented as if it's a problem for women to sort out.

Hangingaroundtheportal · 15/08/2018 08:13

If the trans community actually wanted a third space, there are enough very loud voices out there to at least try and make that happen.

The fact that's its never even been on the table shows that it's nothing to do with logistics of how it would work. I have never even seen a suggestion from someone within the trans community for how a third space could work. It's women's spaces or 'you want us exterminated' from what I have seen.

Hangingaroundtheportal · 15/08/2018 08:14

I'm afraid I'm sick and tired of this being presented as if it's a problem for women to sort out.

Yes, me too. Its nothing to do with women actually.

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