People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

I had a conversation with my mum about trans at the weekend. Turns out she thought that trans meant that you produce hormones of the opposite sex/are intersex and that you can have a 'test' for it. She was gobsmacked when I told her it literally meant a feeling in your head.

She was gobsmacked when I told her it literally meant a feeling in your head.

Or a cross dressing fetish.

Or a gift for anyone wanting to access women and girls.

Datun has managed to be far more eloquent than I, again
*
Asking men exactly why they would be uncomfortable would reveal the identical reasoning of privacy, dignity, feeling of vulnerability, etc. Except they have even less reason as women don't pose a risk.*
This is why we support unisex and female facilities as a compromise

TedTalk by Delia Johnston (adviser for many sporting organisations Trans Inclusion policies).

Delia describes herself as "a normal female but just with an interesting gender history"

On changing name by deed poll (first step), once done & certificate received with the new name Delia, "that's it in eye of the law, I am now legally female"

OP can you cite the provenance of these figures? Sky have been doing polls on transgender-related questions going as far back as at least 2015. The polls are quite crude, they consist of a question, and then an option of a 'yes' or 'no' answer. The spread for the polls is not based on any clear polling model or any form of representative group i.e. through targeted sampling. Sky then usually publish the results on their Twitter feed. I can't immediately find this one, but the most recent one I did find was dated 19/8/2018. The question was 'Do you believe self-identification alone should be enough for trans people to obtain a gender recognition certificate, the initial polling was in favour, but the final tally after the poll closed was 22% in favour, 78% against.

Sorry that should be 19/7/2018 at 11.06am, so if one were to consider that in relation to the poll you cite, it would suggest that the results should be inflected by the earlier poll responses. In which case this implies that the people considered okay to use facilities based on gender could be assumed to be those who went through the rigorous existing procedure for GRC.

Or one could safely say that the Sky polls are not rigorous or representative in any real sense, in which case both sets of results become invalid.

Has anyone posted this yet?

Dottierichardson
the figures fit with the results from a question in the Social Atitudes survey.
Its linked with discussion in thread

Thanks, was that the same one in which 64% of men objected, and the commentary stated that the positive surface results became less so once follow up questions were given? The one that found for example that only around 4 in 10 thought transgender people should serve in the police force or be teachers?

"...these findings suggest the majority of Britons have supportive attitudes towards transgender people. When probed deeper, some of that support becomes more qualified as you explore practical examples.

The most positive attitudes towards trans people tend to be observed among the young, those with the highest education qualifications and those without a religion."

www.natcen.ac.uk/blog/how-do-british-people-feel-about-transphobia-and-transgender-issues

Dotteierichardson
It is the same study but I would stongly encourage people to go to the original source.
In any summary, the nuance of the questions and data is often lost or obscured. ( as per always!)

www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39147/bsa34_moral_issues_final.pdf

Well inspired by the assertion that we are doing many a disservice by claiming many do not understand what is going on, I plucked up the courage to talk to people whilst queuing at various places today. Tesco, Starbucks, boots, M&S and a sports shop. A very unBritish thing to do but when I decide to prove a point...... spoke to twenty people in all age range from young twenties to maybe late 40's, mostly women, a few men. Not one of them knew the issues involved. Most initially were of the as long as it's not harming anyone, we must be tolerant. When pressed they believed they were talking about people who had had surgery or were about to. When given the info on here ALL said no! One man was very vocal about the idea of being labelled transphobic if he were to ever refuse to have sex with someone who has a lady penis. All men were almost aggressive in their language when explaining that their teenage (either real or imagined) daughter should have to share dorm and showers with a penis owning person. The women were as aghast and angry and scared at the suggestions. None were impressed at the attempts to shut down debate and bomb threats.

So thanks to whoevernon here suggested we were labelling women stupid by assuming, I found the nerve to educate 20 random strangers. With help from some of the threads on here. The Jess Bradley, lesbian and prison rapes one had the biggest impact- not the comments from those of us critical of self ID but the posts by the aggressive TRAs..... They really are doing our work for us ....

Ucantarguewistupid I raised the issue with some very unconventional friends a few months ago. They thought transgender meant full surgery and hormones, as is true of the very dysphoric transwoman we all know.

When provided with the facts I had a problem convincing them that I was telling the truth. They were incredulous at the idea that it was now considered bigoted to object to fully male bodied individuals in women's changing rooms, etc.

Hardly anyone has the slightest notion what's being campaigned for, or the victories the trans lobby has already won.

This is the strange thing about it. The House of Commons is supposed to represent our views, but on this particular issue it just seems so way out. All MPs bar a couple are full of TWAW - how is it that they are so out of kilter, or so it would seem, with the populace.

I'm not sure that they realize that they are out of kilter with the populace, though some of them may well be starting to realize that Twitter does not equal the general public now.

It pretty much is what it means nowadays.
The thing I would add, is that the general understanding is that trans women are in fact women. (I realize that's not what most people on this board believe.)
Science pretty much agrees nowadays that there's a difference between biological sex and gender. Gender being in somebody's brain.
Trans women are the unfortunate ones whose gender and biological sex is out of alignment.
But yes, trans women are those who want to live in the world as women.
Now, some women wear makeup, some don't, right?
Also, you catch a trans woman early him her transition and she doesn't look very passable (might have short hair still, might not have her mannerisms just right).
You catch her five years down the line and she would look passable probably.
But her essence, feelings, mind, heart have not changed.
Just the way she carries herself and the way she looks to you will have changed.

This is the strange thing about it. The House of Commons is supposed to represent our views, but on this particular issue it just seems so way out. All MPs bar a couple are full of TWAW - how is it that they are so out of kilter, or so it would seem, with the populace.

I don't think many MPs have given it a second thought. The relevant ministers and mps will be bombarded by pressure groups and all other MPs will just follow the party line.

That's why the coverage in the times is good, it's a newspaper read by MPs.

The thing is cassie I don't care about mannerisms or whether someone has long hair or wears make up it's utterly irrelevant.

It's biological sex that matters as well as the fact that in UK 80% of trans women retain fully intact male genitalia.

You catch her five years down the line and she would look passable probably.

Wishful thinking is a marvelous thing, isn't it?

But her essence, feelings, mind, heart have not changed.

I don't have a womanly essence and all that, CassieBrighter. I have a woman's heart, though, and a woman's kidneys for that matter. I'm a woman because of my sexed female body and the experiences directly connected to that. Had I a cock and balls I'd be male.

You say Trans women are the unfortunate ones whose gender and biological sex is out of alignment.

Sorry, but my gender and biological sex are also out of alignment. I think you'll find this is true of most regular posters here. This is Feminism Chat, FFS.

But then I have very short hair so perhaps I'm wrong about my sex (though the DC I gave birth to might want to argue that point).

cassieBrighter you said ^Also, you catch a trans woman early in her transition and she doesn't look very passable (might have short hair still, might not have her mannerisms just right).
You catch her five years down the line and she would look passable probably.
But her essence, feelings, mind, heart have not changed.
Just the way she carries herself and the way she looks to you will have changed.^

You're implying here that being a woman is to do with the way the person carries themselves and the way they look.

To say this, I find extremely insulting. If I don't carry myself or look in a certain way, does that mean I am not a woman?

I can say that I have something in common with every woman in the world that I do NOT share with men, I.e. my biology. I include all women in this. Yes, I exclude all male born people from womanhood, you know, because they are not and never can be women. I do include transmen because, you know, they are adult human females whether they like it or not.

This does not mean that I think transwoman and men do not exist. This does not mean that I think that they shouldn't exist. By all means transfolk, knock yourself out, dress or act as you like as long as you're not adversely affecting anyone else. You're entitled to exactly the same rights as everyone else no matter how you 'present'. Gender, however does not trump sex.

I do not have a gender. I do not conform. I will not be put in a box with a label. I am not CIS. I am not trans. I am a woman.

I had short hair for a while in my teens and have never made any effort to get my mannerisms "just so". Nobody had a hard time figuring out that I was a girl, even so.

I think how I carry myself largely depends on how much sleep and/or coffee I've had, honestly.

The thing I would add, is that the general understanding is that trans women are in fact women. (I realize that's not what most people on this board believe.)

Saying this doesn't make it true. It isn't. Munroe Bergdorf at least understands that people are just humouring them. They don't actually believe it and no amount of transactivist censorship, gaslighting or bullying people will make them. Apart from maybe the kids. They're easier to manipulate.

Hi "lurker33" (lol)

"You're implying here that being a woman is to do with the way the person carries themselves and the way they look."

Here's the thing. I never said such a thing. I am in fact saying just the opposite. Gender expression is separate from identity.
My point was as response to an earlier poster, who was articulating not having a problem with trans women "as long as they wear makeup, look like women, etc."
My point is that the transition takes years. At which point you begin to consider accepting a trans woman as someone acceptable to have near you is an individual choice.
(In your case, I'm guessing it's never.)