People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

You are so brilliant. Sing to me, Muse, of the destructive wrath of a load of narcissist transphobes, which brought countless woes upon the scared and witless, and made of themselves spoil for bigotry, and thus the plan of The Daily Mail came to fulfillment, from the time when first they parted in strife people who should all be on the same fucking side.

Do, please.

Place is filling up with MRAs again.

It's like being stuck in a Harry Enfield sketch, but then you realise that the person saying the deliberately absurd things is actually 100% serious and really does believe that womanhood is the state of wafting around delicately and waving a hankie dramatically as you swoon onto a waiting divan/into a man's manly arms. Like a Barbara Cartland novel, but with side-eyeing women cast as the witches from Macbeth and made to lurk evilly in the background.

This

You are so brilliant. Sing to me, Muse, of the destructive wrath of a load of narcissist transphobes, which brought countless woes upon the scared and witless, and made of themselves spoil for bigotry, and thus the plan of The Daily Mail came to fulfillment, from the time when first they parted in strife people who should all be on the same fucking side.

LOL. Cool story.

Some beautiful reversals there.

And lo, there came the handmaidens, who soothed the feverish brows of men and told them they could of course go wheresoever they desired and do whatsoever they wished. And a witch would not be suffered to live.

The virulent rhetoric displayed here fuels violence which impacts trans folk the world over. Don't you think for a minute you aren't complicit.

You think men read our words and are prompted to attack? Give over.

The virulent rhetoric displayed here fuels violence which impacts trans folk the world over. Don't you think for a minute you aren't complicit.

We're not complicit.

Women have no power over the actions of violent men. We have nothing to do with male on male violence. Stop trying to control people with emotional blackmail. I will never ever believe that men are women. Because it's a lie. Nor does anyone else. We know this because the issues, feelings and concerns of actual women (not just on this subject, but the reaction to it is extremely telling) are taken much much less seriously and agonised over by politicians and policy makers about a tenth as much as those of this particular subset of males.

Patriarchy in action.

The virulent rhetoric displayed here fuels violence which impacts trans folk the world over. Don't you think for a minute you aren't complicit.

This type of excessive hyperbole really isn't helpful to anyone.

virulent
ˈvɪrʊl(ə)nt,ˈvɪrjʊl(ə)nt/
adjective
1.
(of a disease or poison) extremely severe or harmful in its effects.
"a virulent strain of influenza"
synonyms: poisonous, toxic, venomous, noxious, deadly, lethal, fatal, mortal, terminal, death-dealing, life-threatening, dangerous, harmful, injurious, pernicious, damaging, destructive, unsafe; contaminating, polluting; literarydeathly, nocuous, mephitic; archaicbaneful
"some plant varieties can withstand being sprayed by the most virulent herbicides"
highly infectious, highly infective, highly contagious, infectious, infective, contagious, rapidly spreading, communicable, transmittable, transmissible, spreading, malignant, uncontrollable, pernicious, pestilential;
severe, extreme, violent, dangerous, harmful, lethal, life-threatening;
informalcatching;
literarypestiferous
"a virulent epidemic of cholera swept through London"

Well, this thread got weird.

Funny how sticking up for the rights of gender non conforming children not to be harmed, autistic people not to to be convinced that their way of seeing the world means that they're trapped in the wrong body, traumatised young women not to escape the strictures of a porn soaked misogynist world by cutting their breasts off and presenting as men makes a person a bigot, hey? Because I object to what is so blatantly a men's sexual rights movement.

You won't shame me - I centre women and I'm proud to do so. This movement will harm women and girls and you will never shame me out of sticking up for them

I really do enjoy it when people come to a feminist board with no apparent sense of irony and attempt to use female socialisation to shut women up. You're so mean! You are the problem! People are going to get hurt! Why can't you be nicer? You're hurting meeee!

That shit won't fly here.

There are many situations where women have won rights and protections which are sex based and not gender based.

Sport is sex differentiated because men and women are physically different and z male body has significant advantages over a female body.

Certain places are sex separated because women, by virtue of their sex, are generally smaller, weaker and, being possession of a vagina, vulnerable to rape and possible pregnancy.

Women face discrimination at work because of their sex - because they are perceived to be the main carer for children, because they are the sex which bears children (even if they never do, or never intend to, they are judged by their childbearing capacity and often held back)

There exist political women's shortlists because women face this endemic disadvantage because of their biological sex.

None of this is because they feel like women. It is because they are women, whether they like it or not, due to their biology.

This is not about toilets. This is about saying, yes, transwomen are as entitled to everyone else to be safe. The gender binary is a horrid system and I will work with you to dismantle it.

But these sex separations exist for a sex based reason, and I will not sacrifice the rights and safety of my sisters to do what will only reinforce the gender binary.
Floral, this is the party political broadcast we have been looking for. It's perfect.

You won't shame me - I centre women and I'm proud to do so. This movement will harm women and girls and you will never shame me out of sticking up for them

This. I sleep a lot better speaking up about it than I would if I didn't.

Get over it.

Cassie, do I think I am complicit in male violence because I talk about my gender non-conforming child being coerced into self-harm and parental alienation? Or maybe because I talk about my bad experiences in a mixed sex ward? Perhaps because I have a friend who has used a refuge and was terrified of male bodied people? Or the other friend who was abandoned, and her children, by a husband seeking his authentic 'female' self who abdicated all responsibility for them? Or because there are times and places where I don't want to see a penis, and never want to have an intimate exam by someone in possession of a penis?

Does the public discussion of protecting women and girl's rights cause male violence?

The answer to all these questions is no. I never, ever feel complicit when a man raises his fist to anyone, even if he, or any of his associates say "Look what you made me do."

FWR centres and prioritizes women and girls. We will make no apology for that. You will not find any of my posts which incite anyone to commit acts of violence towards trans people.

Any time you'd like to talk about why you think gender identity should wipe out sex separated spaces and opportunities, go right ahead. I'm interested in your justification. But disagreeing with you will not make me complicit in the assault of anyone.

It's always fascinating to see the lengths misogynists will go to to blame male violence on women.

FloralBunting

morning hope today finds you well and in good spirits. I don't think anyone on mumsnet is responsible for inciting violance and that having this debate should not lead to violent acts especially from TRA though the language around that does paint it as a fight and that I am sorry about at pride one of the chants was trans rights are under attack what do we do fight back. I am sad that we have gotten to this that both sides now want to attack or fight back not find areas and ways to achieve comman goals. I do feel the majority of us on both sides are being railroaded by a few to make there points.

FloralBunting. So sorry to hear that your daughter is not getting the real help she needs, also the coercing/trans grooming and the worrying parental alienation.
Your bad experiences in a mixed sex ward and other women's experiences in what should segregated areas for safety and plain common sense. I know first hand how predatory how some men can be, this is why I will always staunchly support biological women's only places,

Equally interesting to see the confluence with MRA rhetoric. If you come on a feminist board and say the exact same things MRAs say - whatever the topic - why be outraged when you get pushback?!

Nobody on the GC side wants to fight back with actual, physical violence. Attempts to present this as a "both sides" thing are bollocks - only one side is threatening the other with baseball bats, fists, etc.

Bespin, good morning. I shan't be here for most of the day, I'm off to work, but I agree with you that some pretty extreme voices are saying some wild things and doing you a great disservice by claiming to represent you.
To be clear, though, GC feminists have no desire to physically attack TRAs. The TRA rhetoric is inherently violent - and has proved so in actuality too. But there are no GC gangs mobilising to 'attack' anyone. We disagree, and our 'fight' is to use argument, and protest, and conversation.

AngryAttackKittens

Totally agree with you this is not a equivalent thing but both sides are not framing this as a fight one side is sadly using violence

It's almost as if feminists have heard this kind of stuff before!

When people are claiming that women make men hurt us/other men it really doesn't make much difference to me whether or not the person making those claims has a fondness for skirts and lipstick. My focus is on the behavior.

This thread substitutes the T-word used to denote gender critical feminists for "women who say things I don't like". Making the posters sound just like any other common or garden violent misogynist.

Fun new game: TERF translator
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242186-Fun-new-game-TERF-translator

FloralBunting I agree with that especially in the UK. historically there have been acts of violence on both side but I don't hold current GC people accountable for them thankfully these acts are few and far between and your right in saying that GC have not resorted to violance and I do hope we don't either going forwards. I deplore some of the tra tactics that are used they are nothing new the same as been present in lots of rights movements and I never think it's the answer.

I mean, I can see that Bespin is attempting damage control, I'm just not sure why Bespin doesn't understand that the best way to accomplish that would be to distance themselves from people like Cassie and their "delicate, hesitant sexuality" nonsense as much as possible, especially when it's backed up by "you made them do it" comments. That combination rings alarm bells in every sensible woman reading it, and for good reason.

AngryAttackKittens

in no way am I damage control and they are certainly not the avengers lol one fir the geeks there.
people are responsible for there own words and lots of people on here also don't distance themselves from some of the stuff on GC side either maybe we all need to do that wpuk make a point of doing it. I'm not here to won this though I just want to humanise it as I feel that is the only way to stop the hurt that could be caused. when we relate to each other on a personal basis we tend not to try and hurt each other

Out of curiosity, do you think you're doing a good job of relating to the women here on a personal level? It would be interesting to see the contrast between your perception and theirs (if the assumption isn't that the relating to only needs to work in one direction).