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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

People apparently support trans

568 replies

Janni01 · 05/08/2018 17:56

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

OP posts:
Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:24

thebewilderness

I generally have no idea what half of what you said means. the first bit but I get the second bit I'm guessing you are not from around here and our politicians don't deal in absolutes so none will not be an answer

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:26

genuinely sorry

pombear · 07/08/2018 00:28

Thank you Bespin for addressing a question. I have a couple more, if that's OK, but I appreciate you engaging in the discussion.

(NB I'm off to bed, so I won't be ignoring you after this post, just hopefully asleep.)

I would suggest anyone who is living full time in there role as evidenceed by documentation in there name eg bank card driving license passport is the point when someone is afforded those rights. is that a rasonable answer

You've mentioned upthread being worried about being sexually assaulted (I presume by males, as you related it to being on a male ward) are you not also worried by any relaxing of guidelines that would put you, as a transwoman, at risk from more males?

Is the risk not likely to be increased by:

a) Wonkiness of the 'Living in role' describer - so being able to change documents = living in role? I think a ManFriday poster was able to change their driving licence from female to male with a simple form. Is that 'living in role'?

My documents show I'm female, but most of the stuff I do and present as day-to-day would be indivisible from how you'd describe a male as 'living in their role'. How would I prove I'm female to those who hold the decision power of documentation? With the relaxation towards self-ID, what does 'living in their role'' even mean?

b) Right now, with the current legal rights, there's a process that transexuals go through to ensure most legal documentation is changed with some checks and balances from unbiased assessors.

Are you happy with the status quo?

Or are you pro-self-ID, and keen to make it easier for people to change all of their legal documents with less checks and balances from those assessors?

How would this change reduce your risk as a transwoman from being assaulted by males? Surely it would increase it?

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:29

FloralBunting

I'm sorry I think I missed the bit when you talked about your daughter I'm sorry that happened to you I would hope anyone would work with both your daughter and family in exploring how they felt I do worry about online unsolicited advice that young people get about a number of topics

FloralBunting · 07/08/2018 00:34

Bespin, on that we are agreed. The internet is an easy channel for feeding kids all sorts of lies.

Fwiw, I think you are probably one of the most genuine TW onsite, and while you do cock up quite often, partly due to the idiosyncratic posting style, and partly because you're human and prone to a touch of snarky gobshiteyness ( and I can hardly point fingers there) I do genuinely see your distress and frustration that this whole issue generates so much heat and so little light.

Fanjango · 07/08/2018 00:35

I'm just mortified by this thread. My brothers partner is transgender. You've caught me at a bad time as they were attacked this weekend. They ripped at her knickers..a full trans has gone through a lot of surgery and therapy to get where they are. Negative views lead to actions like they've had...what's there...and can they fight back. I'm sickened.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:36

pombear

I'm in favour of some checks and balances I just wanted a simpler less midical system as the waiting is now too long for that to be workable.

on the driving licence manfriday have yet to show that the person as been able to change it back or that there insurance is now valid if they show that then I will be worried and would ask for more checks to be put in I don't want men using trans identity to gain acsess to spaces becauss I'm in them too.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:39

FloralBunting

Thank you for that all that I can ask for is that we see each other as people trying to do what we think is right do us and those around us I'm a northern lass unfortunately the gobbyness can not be helped sometimes. though I do try

FloralBunting · 07/08/2018 00:46

Bespin, I have genuinely never seen transsexuals as anything other than people with a difficult hand. This is not in dispute here, you know that.

But you and I both know there are some incredibly serious issues here, and the consequences are very real for everyone. It is an honest, no snide question - how do women ensure their safety and rights are protected if the social and legal barriers to any man at all helping himself are weakened to the point of obsolescence? How can transwomen be safe if that happens? Where on earth is the bridging point there? If you say you need our spaces to be safe, how does that work? If we're unsafe, then, by extension, you're unsafe.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:47

Fandango I'm sorry to hear that and I hope they are ok, I am lucky that I have only ever had that happen verbally and I have very good friends who do not back down. I hope some of the reteric in this can be toned down for everyone's sake.

FloralBunting · 07/08/2018 00:51

Fanjango, that's really horrible. No excuse at all.

May I ask, though, did GC feminists do it? Have the perpetrators been lurking on MN and planning the attack via threads here? Because violence towards trans people is emphatically rejected here so it's not really the fault of FWR.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:53

FloralBunting this is the issue and there is a difference with trans people and people who just dress up at weekends believe me I have been there and the difference is large. this is who I think you are referring too in all this but you are putting us all together and some tea also do that and we are clearly not all the same in this, they don't need these protections so will not apply for them. also men will just decide to say they are more so now its been highlighted that they can I am worried for my safety more so now than I have in years

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:55

FloralBunting

I don't blame mumsnet for this anymore than I blame the media or other things these are just symptoms of a society that sees us as other or less than in a lot of ways.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:57

again I'm not saying it's you but there is thus fascination with us especially by men in this society and that toxic masculinity that makes them both attracted and repulsed by us and causes us harm

FloralBunting · 07/08/2018 01:01

Bespin, I'm not surprised, genuinely. It's not me putting you together with the myriad under the Stonewall trans umbrella, though, and those are the voices with the ear of lawmakers.
Yes, I know that the creepy nasties won't need to get those protections. But the hinge of it all is that by this change to self ID, they won't have to. The social boundaries in place will begin to be eroded so that actually the GRC won't be any protection for trans people either. Girls will be trained to ignore their instincts. Trans people won't be able to access medical assistance because it's been 'demedicalized' ( and don't think for a minute that a cut-happy government won't throw you right under the bus).

I wish it was a twitch your nose and it's sorted job. But it's just not.

FloralBunting · 07/08/2018 01:04

Anyway, I've got to call it a night here, I have a full day tomorrow. Decent conversation, Bespin, sorry I was a cow this morning.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 01:07

FloralBunting I didn't think you were a cow this morning we all have days like that hope tomorrows is a better one.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 01:09

right it's way past my bed time I may be on holiday but I still have things to do in the real world night all.

GaspingShark · 07/08/2018 01:15

Feminists all over the world consider the rolling back of women's rights under the guise of equality in the UK to be of enormous importance to all of us.

The ones I know think we're a basket of strangely obsessed bigots, so I'm guessing we're both using biased samples.

thebewilderness · 07/08/2018 01:53

No. The difference is between those who are Feminists, members of the political movement for the liberation of women, and those who identify as Feminists.

InsaneVampire · 07/08/2018 02:05

No. The difference is between those who are Feminists, members of the political movement for the liberation of women, and those who identify as Feminists.

www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

HTH

CassieBrighter · 07/08/2018 02:13

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thebewilderness · 07/08/2018 02:29

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

InsaneVampire · 07/08/2018 02:31

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OrchidInTheSun · 07/08/2018 04:23

There is very little violence against trans people - that's just something thrown about like suicide with no evidence to back it up.