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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

People apparently support trans

568 replies

Janni01 · 05/08/2018 17:56

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

OP posts:
Bespin · 06/08/2018 23:47

FloralBunting

you tell me the answer that they will expect is not ban trans people from spaces. so what is the workable answer what are you going to be happy with this is not a brexit negotiation you don't have to keep saying all or nothing

FloralBunting · 06/08/2018 23:48

Cassie, we're not in the US, so Trump and the resurgence of the pro life movement there are not high up on the agenda here. The pro life movement in the UK is on the back foot, particularly with recent rulings about exclusion areas around a particular clinic, which will likely go nationwide I should think.

These aren't at the forefront of our minds. But people grooming my daughter into binding her breasts and creeps getting their wanger out in public while advising the government that women don't really need boundaries are very much pressing concerns.

You might not consider those things important, but sadly, that shows we have a very different perspective.

Bespin · 06/08/2018 23:52

pombear as someone just said how do we police it and how do we now. I understand you want to change society back but I don't think you will achieve that you certainly will not in this consultation it would take you years to get a blanket ban in this country as our law system does not work like that and even in the US its not working. rights are a hard thing to take back

FloralBunting · 06/08/2018 23:52

Bespin, Betty made some helpful suggestions about retaining birth sex but putting in place anti-discrimination laws about any and all gender expression. I thought that was a helpful beginning.

Bespin · 06/08/2018 23:54

FloralBunting

that's fine does it allow the same access to services as now?

AngryAttackKittens · 06/08/2018 23:58

You have to love the hostage negotiation aspect of this, wherein the supposedly "reasonable" and "feminist" trans activists recognize the awfulness of the Jess Bradley's in their movement (or at least pretend to) and then use those people as leverage to get women to do what they want, ie. if you won't work with us you'll end up stuck with them.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:01

ofgs AngryAttackKittens we are all just people this is not a game we are not all pretending to be something this is me. I am a reasonable kind person who is a feminist and as been for years I have hopefully grown as a person over that time as we all do

pombear · 07/08/2018 00:02

Bespin
At no point in my posts have I suggested rights should be rolled back.

I understand you want to change society back
You assume too much. Not that you would necessarily know, but I was at the forefront some years ago of making changes in the organisation I worked for to support transgender people. There's a mythology and spin currently growing from TRAs that we're all right-wing luddites. It's a serious mistaken assumption.

I asked you specific questions about your thoughts about how to make this work.

You say you're concerned about 'one of us', and I assume that to be 'people like you' being assaulted by male-bodied people if you were put on a male ward.

What are the limits you would suggest are put on who can and can't be on a female ward?

Or are you OK with 'anyone who says they're a woman is a woman' and will be bunked up next to you? As surely that just puts you, as 'one of us' at risk again?

You seem to have avoided my question and instead thrown an insult back at me that I'm a luddite. I'm interested in your answers, not your insults.

BettyDuMonde · 07/08/2018 00:04

Bespin, you’ll have to list the access to services currently available before we could answer your question.

So many changes have happened gradually and/or socially without consultation of women’s groups that we genuinely do not know the baseline.

thebewilderness · 07/08/2018 00:05

CassieBrighter

Feminists all over the world consider the rolling back of women's rights under the guise of equality in the UK to be of enormous importance to all of us.

They are at the sharp end right now and we are in this fight with them.
If you have more important things to do I suggest you go well.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 00:06

This is most definitely not a game for the women and girls whose right to privacy and public assembly is under threat. Try telling that to the people who see those spaces as an ideal venue for sexy roleplaying - if the trans movement hadn't welcomed those people under the umbrella we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

It wasn't GC feminists who led us to this place.

thebewilderness · 07/08/2018 00:07

I am a reasonable kind person who is a feminist and as been for years I have hopefully grown as a person over that time as we all do
Anyone who has been here more than a week knows this is not true.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:09

pombear

I would suggest anyone who is living full time in there role as evidenceed by documentation in there name eg bank card driving license passport is the point when someone is afforded those rights. is that a rasonable answer

CassieBrighter · 07/08/2018 00:09

"But people grooming my daughter into binding her breasts and creeps getting their wanger out in public while advising the government that women don't really need boundaries are very much pressing concerns.

You might not consider those things important, but sadly, that shows we have a very different perspective."

I'm sure we're capable of a better level of conversation. This is snide, it's haranguing, it's baiting.

I also oppose public indecency. Though how that's relevant here, beats me.

In terms of someone "grooming" your daughter, I'm not sure who would do this or why. At some point, a young person might come to their parents and have a conversation about their sense of self. This is driven by the individual, not by some secret transgender cabal.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:12

thebewilderness why so personal I know nothing about you except what you tell me I make no assumptions, you know nothing about me if the only way you think you can debate is like that then I feel you are adding very little to this

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 00:12

Anyone who has been here more than a week knows this is not true.

At least you don't get the matey, aren't we all chums here comments - be grateful for small mercies.

FloralBunting · 07/08/2018 00:12

Yes, Bespin, Betty is right. I don't know what the baseline is either. I just keep getting slightly creepy intonations from TRAs that 'we're already in your spaces and you didn't even notice'.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 07/08/2018 00:14

I would suggest anyone who is living full time in there role as evidenceed by documentation in there name eg bank card driving license passport is the point when someone is afforded those rights. is that a rasonable answer

How would I know, by sight, who is living full time? How is living full time proof that they are no threat to women and girls?

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 00:14

We did notice, we were just too polite to say anything. We have now been pushed to the point where politely ignoring the intrusions is no longer a workable option.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:14

It wasn't GC feminists who led us to this place.

in a lot of ways I feel thst this is sadly true. there was always going to be this backlash and pushing only made it more certain to happen. and yes other people jumped on board

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:18

AngryAttackKittens

I would hope people could treat others with respect and dignity its a small thing very British really lol

Bespin · 07/08/2018 00:19

I know a few on here get thst it can be all or nothing and know that there is going to be a compromise cis that's how our politicians work so what does that actually look like.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 07/08/2018 00:21

so what does that actually look like.

What do you think?

thebewilderness · 07/08/2018 00:21

thebewilderness why so personal I know nothing about you except what you tell me I make no assumptions, you know nothing about me if the only way you think you can debate is like that then I feel you are adding very little to this

It's the forced teaming that gives me the creeps.
I understand that you are not aware of all the red flags you wave in our face. This is just one of them.
I am not interested in negotiating which rights women should give up to accommodate you. None, is my answer.

FloralBunting · 07/08/2018 00:22

Cassie, I have gone out of my way to be polite to you and explain the GC position with as much clarity as I could muster.

As soon as I bring in a personal connection as to why this is important to me, you accuse me of being haranguing and baiting?

The public indecency connection is the current situation with Jess Bradley, prominent TRA advising the government about appropriate boundaries for women, while maintaining a blog in which they allegedly chronicles their persistent exposure of their penis in public. Which is a concern for what I would hope were obvious reasons.

As for my daughter, I'm well aware of the nature of the influences in her life, and they have been profoundly unhelpful and almost managed to convince her she was a boy because she hit puberty, hated her body, likes short hair, boys section clothing and stereotypically 'masculine' pursuits. The fact that they have encouraged her to think that it would be a good idea to damage herself physically and pitted her against her parents is certainly what I would call grooming.