People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is a belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?
How will you punish the non believers and heretics?

History teaches us that one of the most self destructive things a government can do is to mandate compliance with a belief system the population does not share.

Aw reluctant. Think about the inner essence o& the women

I must have asked about the (non-existent) third gamete a thousand times by now...

... answer came there none.

Mammalian sex classes are based on reproductive potential, not fertility.

Jebus - we've wound back at least a year on this thread. Some people need to catch up that biology talk has been completely jettisoned. We witches feminists are identity denialists these days. Do keep up, everyone.

must have asked about the (non-existent) third gamete a thousand times by now...

It's on the Z chromosome.... often found in unicorns.

if we get onto shy, fluttering, hesitant lady peen littlbrowndog, I'm bloody out of here.

titchy lol

Omg, Reluctant. No. Please. No. The 'docile, patient, hesitant, fragile' business. I'd all but wiped that from my poor brain.

None of us are being particularly docile or hesitant - is that just for sex as in shagging or are we about to be told that we have a manly gender identity?

Everyone is very angry that I've dared to question a rule system that appears to depend on knowing the answer before you ask the question for a significant set of any mammal you might examine (what sex is this organism? Well, I think it belongs to the class of females, so even though it produces no gametes, I will allocate it there..).
I'm not invested enough to want to argue with you, but that approach wouldn't work in any scientific setting.

Erm, so now you're excluding anyone infertile from being of either sex, including women who are past the menopause, and people who have survived cancer? And all pre reproductive children, obviously.

RaindropsOnKittens43

As someone who needed a total hysterctomy as medical neccessity following a gyny cancer diagnosis which led to both surgical menopause and of course infertility can I ask you to not appropriate my experiences or those of the many women similarly affected.

In fact if you could stop doing this and encourage others to do the same it would be most appreciated.

The statement 'of the class' does not exclude the groups of individual women as you insinuate. It is though rather appalling, in my opinion, that you and others use this argument and demonstrates a lack of critical thinking, empathy & respect.

but that approach wouldn't work in any scientific settin

And yet in biology labs all over the world it seems to work just fine....

Biologists should definitely employ the "ask organism how it identifies, and if it says it's female then it is" method instead.

😃 AAK

Hi, I'm new here but a long time lurker. I'd like to contribute a point to this discussion, which is the figure that is never quoted from the sky survey.
The results revealed that 84pc do not see themselves as prejudiced against trans people, and vast majority have no objection to peeing next to a trans person. however, what about the result to the question: do you believe self-identification should be enough for trans people to obtain a gender recognition certificate?
75% said No, and only 29% said yes.
that seems to show that the general public's view is in line with the general view on this board - not prejudiced toward trans, however, concerned about the idea that 'anyone saying they are a woman is one.'

I'm not invested enough to want to argue with you

You're not capable of a good faith argument with anyone here. I can tell that by your interesting use of "logic" poundshop sophistry

happygolurkey. Exactly. The surveys I've seen seems to suggest that the general public are against the idea that a women is anyone who declares themselves as one. People seem to want at least an element of medical diagnosis.

now this bit

do you believe self-identification should be enough for trans people to obtain a gender recognition certificate?
75% said No, and only 29% said yes.

This is where the discussion is to be had its the bit people actually want to talk about, all the other stuff you keep bringing up detracts from your points around this bit. I think wpuk understand that to make a point you need to focus on one clear question and keep people focused on that. this is the actual question of the conclusion. keeping having this biology discussion on both sides is just a distraction from the question that is being asked at this moment not many people are asking the other ones.

consultation

the biology discussion is why we're having this despite Bespin, keep up

if transwomen really were women there wouldn't be a debate to be had

would you not find it irritating bespin if people kept popping out on threads you were on telling you that they were doing debating 'wrong'

ZuttZeVootEeVro cheers
Most people, who i'm brave enough to bring this up with, are not anti trans, but do have worries about self-identification. not sure where the idea has come from that this is some kind of radical stance

Most people, who i'm brave enough to bring this up with, are not anti trans, but do have worries about self-identification. not sure where the idea has come from that this is some kind of radical stance

It's the same type of outrageous reversal of reality that they do for everything. No one really buys it outside pomo land.

Amazing the number of people who bog off because they aren't invested enough, can't be bothered, have to ice a cake, etc, right when someone asks if Jess Bradley is a woman, or points out that it's rather silly to claim menopausal women aren't women.

Rufustheyawningreindeer

what even I find frustrating is you are mostly saying the same think in a lot of different ways trans woman are not biological women agreed there is a difference. why not then move on to how you are going to get what you want. you keep going over the same points and responding to tra who are obviously getting you to do that. I'm thinking we will all be better if we moved forward in this we are never going to agree on a lot of things but what are we going to agree on. People will expect us to work thus out at some point