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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

organ transplant discussion on lbc right now

166 replies

Clairetree1 · 05/08/2018 09:21

anyone like to ring and explain they are opting out of organ donation because of claims of TRAs that they will be allowed to have our uteruses?

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Bowlofbabelfish · 05/08/2018 18:21

Yes, the glaring absence through all this is any mention of a child. The want for a child and the want to be a parent of a child.

BirthCanal · 05/08/2018 18:48

mention of a child
l agree: if there was any thought for the proposed future child, why would one enter the child into an extremely dangerous experiment which could have lifelong consequences even if (very unlikely, at least in the first few years of trials) the child survived.

There is even more on the horizon with "organ swapping" between paired transmen and transwomen mentioned in the article below (though the wait for a compatible donor would be long.). Also mentioned is the prospect of organ culture which removes rejection by manipulating the iindividual's own cells. I believe this is an important future market, and I have heard that one of the wealthy individuals who promotes and funds the trans agenda has large shares in such a tissue engineering company.

Obviously a market is required, but there's no problem there with youngsters being recruited apace, and, as we know, puberty blocked organs are not ideally suited to SRS.

Delendaest · 05/08/2018 20:18

I cannot believe that I have just been reading on a site named ‘Mumsnet’ - the which, one must presume, is used by at least some mothers of children - people saying they would opt out of organ transplants in order to make life harder for the trans community. I am a cis woman who believes passionately in equality for all women. Yet I would be happy to donate after death any part of my body to anyone who needed it. Yes, really. Even to bigots who indulge in identity denial.

Jamieandwordswo · 05/08/2018 20:21

Nobody is saying they would opt out of donating life saving organs due to trans people.

BirthCanal · 05/08/2018 20:24

Excuse me but no one said they wanted or intended to "make things difficult for the trans community". What they communicated, generally, was a queasiness at the thought that their body parts might be misappropriated for the furtherment of a totally unnatural and disgraceful experiment on innocent foetuses/neonates.

PeakPants · 05/08/2018 20:25

Delenda it's not about identity denial or making things harder for anyone. It is medically impossible to transplant a womb into a male body and I am pretty sure it always will be. Furthermore, nobody NEEDS a womb transplant in the way that they need a liver, kidney or heart transplant. It should not be made an NHS priority, even for women. There is no talk of it happening though and the entire thing is just absolutely ridiculous.

The whole thread was started by someone who is either monumentally thick or a troll or both. I agree that absolutely nobody should be put off organ donation- it is so vital.

Bowlofbabelfish · 05/08/2018 20:37

I’m glad you’re on the organ donor register delenda - it’s a valuable thing to do. Do let your family know your wishes as well as family can of course override if they want.

Nobody is going to be implanting wombs Into men any time soon. Or ever. It’s medically impossible and ethically indefensible.

The thrust of this thread for me has been the objectification of women’s bodies and fetishisation of gestation over the needs of any actual child. I think that does need to be spoken about

But as I said, and many others have said, it’s not possible, will not be possible soon and should not be possible or permissible to implant a uterus into a male.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/08/2018 21:08

Nobody is saying that Delendaest.

I have said I would not donate reproductive organs or tissue to anyone- natal woman or trans woman or trans man. I feel strongly that science has already pushed reproductive assisted conception too far for natal women. This is not life - saving technology.

I am happy to donate any other organ or tissue.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/08/2018 21:10

What they communicated, generally, was a queasiness at the thought that their body parts might be misappropriated for the furtherment of a totally unnatural and disgraceful experiment on innocent foetuses/neonates

Yes and I would say that to any natal woman contemplating uterus transplant or implant.

HairyLittlePoet · 05/08/2018 21:27

On a lighter note, to break the tension a little, here is the fragrant Jane Fae's opinion on womb transplants.

And the little ditty this sentiment inspired

All I want is a womb somewhere

organ transplant discussion on lbc right now
Bowlofbabelfish · 05/08/2018 21:30

Wombs AND uteruses?

Grin
PeakPants · 05/08/2018 21:32

Aaah and to think Jane Fae went to Oxford.... I presume they will also obtain ovaries and can then fertilise their own eggs.
Oh and no a fully intact penis is not a vagina so I cannot consider what trans women have now to be one, although it seems Jane has had genital-removal surgery.

Voice0fReason · 05/08/2018 21:49

I am a huge supporter of organ donation and am glad they are switching to an opt out system as it is a proven way of increasing the number of donors.
I wouldn't mind donating my uterus to a woman who had had a hysterectomy.
I can't see it ever being possible to implant it into a male transwoman.

LangCleg · 05/08/2018 22:31

I have said I would not donate reproductive organs or tissue to anyone- natal woman or trans woman or trans man. I feel strongly that science has already pushed reproductive assisted conception too far

I'm with Lass on this one.

PeakPants · 05/08/2018 22:34

Also agree with Lass. While it is very sad for women who have had a hysterectomy to not be able to carry a baby, nobody has an absolute right to a child and we should be focusing our efforts and money on curing diseases like cancer and HIV rather than transplanting wombs.

LangCleg · 05/08/2018 22:36

Also, I see identity denier is now the new anti-trans, which used to be the new T-acronym we're not allowed to say any more hereabouts. I was quite happy with the original witch, dontchaknow. I don't know why we have to keep coming with new pejoratives.

Vickyyyy · 05/08/2018 22:40

Its been a while since I filled out my donor card thing, but I am sure that I got options of what I would like to donate. Of course you cannot chose who gets anything too so you would have to opt out of uterus all together rather than sa 'not for male people'...I really really doubt that males will be offered donor uteruses in the near future tbh and I think TRAs are even more head in the clouds nonsense on this topic. I cannot forsee a time when science can ever allow a man to birth a baby tbh. Besides other obvious issues, its completely unethical.

This thread had actually reminded me I need to reregister. When I did it, I said they could have anything (that works..god knows what will) except my eyes as the thought of eyes creeped me out. Sicne then I have thought about it a bit more and I will obviously be dead and unable to feel them poking around in my eyes, and it could help someone so much,

RuddyTrees · 05/08/2018 23:04

The goalposts will never, ever stop moving, will they? It started off with "Hey, we just wanna pee, that's all", then came "I'm a lesbian too, don't mind my erect cock". Next up we had 6ft 2" male-bodied "wimmin" winning athletic events, bearded "wimmin" telling us how to be women, redefining the phrase "Actually, my lesbian girlfriend I've a cock down there" as someone's 'sexual history' and now they want to harvest wombs, too. They'll jump the queue, too, you can bet.
Did I just wake up in Gilead??

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2018 00:01

I am against the principle of presumed consent for transplants.

I know this is a controversial position to some because "won't you think of those who will die and didn't have to" pov.

Personally I think its a easy way to phrase things without looking at the bigger picture.

Asking for consent, was always about safeguarding frameworks, which protected the most vulnerable - such as those who couldn't consent, had limited intelligence or language skills or something else.

Presumed consent sounds nice in principle, but to be frank about it, I don't think safeguarding vulnerable people within the system is up to scratch, particularly in an age where the politics of the time seems to be heading to more of a hierarchy of worthiness to live based on social status rather than a society which views all human life as equally important.

The state effectively owns your body after you die in a presumed consent situation.

And the idea of all the people you can measure who would benefit from presumed consent, does nothing to consider the number of vulnerable people who would 'lose out' because the mindset this would be a 'never event'. Except never events happen with reasonably predictable regularity. And I simply don't trust the state of politics which has produced Grenfell and Windrush.

The devaluing of human life and the deconstruction of humans into parts which benefits others rather than still seeing humans as humans is a process I feel is dehumanising in its own right. Its all very well meaning, but I think particularly in the context of a certain lack of understanding of how safeguarding is necessary, how it works and how easily rights are eroded or just ignored if someone is vulnerable until its too late it doesn't sit well with me.

I know this will upset people to say this.

I also stress that this does not stop you donating. It just means where the control and power in the dynamic is held is different.

I don't want to comment on the trans angle on this - I think the wider debate is more important and any part of that relates to trans agenda fits neatly within the wider stuff anyway.

For me its simply down to why safeguarding frameworks were build and how they originated and how once again that seems to be forgotten. Who were they set up to protect and why? Why was presumed consent never the default from the word go. It wasn't merely because of ignorance of transplants and emotionally distressed relatives. It went deeper and was about the role of the state and the authoritarianism of the state.

Yes people will benefit from presumed consent, but the who is important. As is who might lose too.

Once the system is changed, what might happen if the NHS was privatised for example?

This isn't a debate that will be held openly. Anyone who expresses views like mine, will be attacked as being 'selfish' or asked the emotive question 'but what if it were your child'. Personally I think it over simplifies the issue and reduces it to an emotional rather than one that seems to look at it from the pov of someone particularly vulnerable but without noisy and powerful advocates. And doesn't place the concept within the politics of the time, which are not as egalitarian nor as supportive of human rights as we might like them to be.

I can see problem, issues and even outright scandals arising which will be swept under the carpet in the name of the greater good.

None of it sits particularly well with me.

I wish I felt differently but I sadly believe that human nature simply isn't always nice or honest or ethical.

I'm sure others will shoot me down in flames for being some kind of heretic. I just don't see this as the simple magic solution without negative consequences that its presumed to be. Nor do I think we live in a political vacuum. Politics are changing and the timing leaves a change in the system vulnerable to exploitation if we are not very careful and aren't properly honest about this.

sociopathsunited · 06/08/2018 10:27

Redtoothrush I understand completely. I've chosen to be a donor, since I was legally allowed to. I would hate to think that the assumed consent would be abused, but that's a reality I have to open my eyes to. I don't doubt it will be abused, on a national level. No flaming from me. You've made me think, thank you.

LangCleg · 06/08/2018 10:33

I'm sure others will shoot me down in flames for being some kind of heretic.

I don't think you are. At all.

sociopathsunited · 06/08/2018 10:37

So who are the vulnerable? Kids in care, obviously. Who else? Immigrants, illegal most like as they could be vanished. Who else can be "disappeared" into the body farm? Asylum seekers? The homeless. Shelter residents? Who could disappear or BE disappeared?

sociopathsunited · 06/08/2018 10:38

Kids in care - I meant when there kicked out of care, at 16. Or is it 18?

Bowlofbabelfish · 06/08/2018 10:45

Prisoners, sociopath

Fairly long and unpleasant history of those incarcerated being used this way.

There are specific rules in clinical trial guidelines for prisoners because they are considered an exceptionally vulnerable group.