organ transplant discussion on lbc right now

[Clairetree1]

anyone like to ring and explain they are opting out of organ donation because of claims of TRAs that they will be allowed to have our uteruses?

OK, but remember that a sociologist researching it has absolutely no bearing on whether it will happen in the medical field. Doctors don't tend to pay a lot of heed to what sociologists think.
And Paris Lees is exceptionally feeble-minded and that tweet just proves it. Maybe Paris can volunteer to have her stomach sliced open and a muscular sac from another person implanted into her abdominal cavity and attached to some random intestine or something. Doubt Paris will be so keen to be the first pregnant transwoman somehow....

OK, but remember that a sociologist researching it has absolutely no bearing on whether it will happen in the medical field.

This will likely be my last riposte, I promise. I don't want to derail anything or get into an argument, merely explain my thinking.

I am 100% sure there is a desire by some in the trans activist community for males to be able to become pregnant.

Additionally I just wanted to point out that actually these activists groups do lobby clinicians, and they have influence. Sociology should not be discounted.

Let's consider this example (which is in no way actually connected to the uterine transplants question, but merely illustrative of the social sciences connection)

The book:

Transgender Health: A Practitioner's Guide to Binary and Non-Binary Trans Patient Care

This is aimed at health practitioners (medics)

It's written by Ben Vincent, PhD

This is Dr Ben Vincent's background:
Ben Vincent (pronouns: they/them) has a bachelor's degree in Biological Natural Sciences specialising in Genetics (2006-2009), and an MPhil in Multi-Disciplinary Gender Studies (2010-2011), both from the University of Cambridge. Their PhD was titled 'Non-Binary Gender Identity Negotiations: Interactions with Queer Communities and Medical Practice', (2013-2016) at the University of Leeds. They joined the University of York in September 2017 as Associate Lecturer, and convene the 2nd year Sociology module 'Gender, Sexuality, and Inequalities'.
Ben is a member of the British Sociological Association (BSA), the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), and a trustee of the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES). Their first book 'Transgender Health: Best Practice in Binary and Non-Binary Trans Healthcare' will be published in 2018.

www.york.ac.uk/sociology/our-staff/academic/ben-vincent/

WPATH and GIRES are influential in shaping medical policy around trans issues in the UK. This is why I personally do seriously consider what sociologists are saying and keep them in mind.

But again, I think we will agree to disagree. I respect your opinion.

NHS England and NHS Scotland
Analysis of public consultation on
proposed service specifications for
specialised Gender Identity Services
for Adults (published earlier this year)

See executive summary for weight given to organisations: GIRES, NUS & Action for Trans Health.

www.engage.england.nhs.uk/survey/gender-identity-services-for-adults/user_uploads/report-independent-analysis-consultation-responses-gender-identity-service-specifications.pdf

Fair enough. (Ben sounds pretty annoying btw). But I think the main point is that it is not possible, for the simple reason that only the female sex can gestate. As I said before, trans women are welcome to give it a go (I doubt many will volunteer) but I am certain it will fail. It matters not how many articles Ben has written about how it's literal violence to misgender a patient, but that will not give a male body the magic ability to accept a womb and the brain to regulate the hormone level so as to allow a baby to develop.

Are uteri routinely taken from donors? They aren't included on the list of organs. I can't find my donor card but I think I scribbled on it that no reproductive organs or tissue could be used but I'm not sure if they are used anyway.

I think you’re both right actually.

Medically this isn’t happening. It’s just not. Our biology is not plug and play and no ethics committee on earth would take the risk with a foetus.

But it is very important to look at what the pressure to make it happen is and where it’s coming from.

It’s the same as the ATH manifesto where it starts going on about training themselves to do surgery on each other. It shows a laughable lack of knowledge on just how complex such surgery actually is but the take home message is that people feel entitled to this and will use threats and pressure to try to make it happen.

That sort of climate leads to ‘maverick’ (ie operating totally outside all ethic and legal framework) clinicians doing Very Bad Things.

I find it very disturbing on several levels.

Bowl wasn't there a Turkish (?) clinical trial that involved the uteri of young female born transmen having hysterectomies as part of their medical transition?

My goodness ... I hadn’t seen that ROwan

www.organdonation.nhs.uk/about-donation/what-can-i-donate/tissue/

Are uteri routinely taken from donors? They aren't included on the list of organs. I can't find my donor card but I think I scribbled on it that no reproductive organs or tissue could be used but I'm not sure if they are used anyway.

Confirmed: not on the list. The closest thing you could donate would be the amniotic membrane after a c-section (out of curiosity, has anyone ever been asked?).

Private donation may be a thing, of course, istr there being a means by which you could donate umbilical cords? Too long ago for me to remember now.

Bowl
'Could the female-to-male transgender population be donor candidates for uterus transplantation?'
Murat Api,1 Ayşen Boza,2,* and Mehmet Ceyhan3
Objective:
To evaluate the eligibility of female-to-male (FtM) transgender people as donor candidates with regard to histologic, surgical, and social aspects.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5780567/#s3title

I am a woman. I need a kidney transplant! Please don’t let this stop you donating other organs or this woman may die and leave her children motherless

You can altruistically bank cord blood cells - it goes into a communal bank. So you may notvise them but others could if they needed and it was a match.
Slightly different to banking your own child’s cells for own use but same process.

I’ve never heard of anyone donating a uterus. I know unusual placentas sometimes get used for research (have seen a fair few of those) but I assume that’s consented for at the time. After Alder Hey the rules got (rightly) very strict.

So that paper is mainly looking at the young women undergoing hysterectomy as a source for women with MRKH syndrome. This is a DSD - patients are female and have missing vagina/uterus. So in that case it’s a female to female transplant.
The article also talks about how risky it is for the donor to have the hysterectomy-as-donor operation because of the need to keep as much of the ‘plumbing’ intact as possible. So it’s a much much more dangerous operation for the donor to have the uterus removed in a form that can be transplanted than it is to do a standard hysterectomy.

I dont have a huge issue with altruistic donation woman to woman but I do see this as setting a precedent somewhat and in that light yeah, disturbing.

The closest thing you could donate would be the amniotic membrane after a c-section (out of curiosity, has anyone ever been asked?)

I had an elective caeserean. I don't remember being asked but it was 28 years' ago. What it and placenta is used for doesn't seem to be connected to assisted reproduction so I would have agreed if I had been asked.

No reproductive organs at all are taken from deceased donors in this country. Fact.

So basically the OP is indulging in ill informed scare mongering ?

Here a trans mans mother describes donating her uterus
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.cosmopolitan.com/health-fitness/amp21989512/uterus-transplant/

I was asked 17 years ago if I would like to donate the placenta of my last child. I reminded them it probably wasn't a good idea. Twas a lovely organ, though not as beautiful as my gorgeous boy!

SandysMam

All my children are organ donors. xx I'm hoping they live long and happy lives though.

Here a trans mans mother describes donating her uterus

Nothing to do with trans issues but I find that horrific. I wonder how many laboratory animals have been tortured and killed before they moved on to human trials. And for what? It's not as if the world is short of human beings.

(from the Cosmopolitan article) I think this is likely a widely hoped for future amongst the transgender community. It is definitely expressed:

"Although it wouldn't go to a trans woman who wanted to have a baby, my donation could help doctors learn more about the procedure, and, I hoped, lead to another clinical trial that would give trans women the ability to conceive. Although it wouldn't help my son directly—as a transgender man, he has a uterus, and probably won't want to carry a child, anyway—it was something I could do now to potentially help the trans community of the future."

Paris Lees will never experience pregnancy, which is sad for her but it's a biological fact it will not happen in her life time. That's because Paris was born biologically male, even Paris admits this birth fact herself - otherwise I suppose she wouldn't be a transwoman.

Paris Lees will never experience pregnancy, which is sad for her

I have no idea if Paris Lees is able to be a parent. There are many individuals and couples who dearly wish to have a child and can't for many reasons.

In these speculations about possible uterus transplants and pregnancy, I note the consistant absence of mention of the hoped-for child.

Paris Lees will never experience pregnancy, which is sad for her but it's a biological fact it will not happen in her life time.

Well, as you say, it's a biological fact. I don't feel 'sad' that I am not able to impregnate a woman. If I was, I would really just have to get over it. Not start spouting about how I need to harvest a man's testes and shove them into my female body. Paris just demonstrates that this has gone waaaaay too far.

Well exactly. Testicles will never be implanted not even with someone who has suffered testicular cancer in both testicles and though this is rare, it does happen.

Vaginal implants cannot happen.

Penile implants can't happen either.