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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can Men Be Feminists?

263 replies

Yambabe · 02/08/2018 23:50

Musing. While I've always been on the side of equality and rights for women I don't think, in the past, I would have called myself a feminist.

I'm now starting to do a little more background reading about history and feminist theories, but only really started and don't have the knowledge that I know some of you all do.

The more I read the more interesting it get though, and the more I realise that there is no one-size-fits-all definition of feminism. The basic premise seems to be that society treats men as superior to women, women are oppressed by patriarchy and that feminism exists in all its various forms to try and lift that oppression and attain true equality for women.

So with that in mind, is feminism something that only women can truly understand or is it something that can be open to anyone who understands the premise? There are undoubtedly some men who empathise with the theories and aims of feminism but are they feminists or just supporters?

Not sure where I'm going with this, just curious to see how others view it I think. Also happy to take on board any reading recommendations (although I have already found the other sections of FWR to be a great resource).

OP posts:
Agastache · 03/08/2018 12:52

NOT MY NIGEL

Melanippe · 03/08/2018 12:59

Is he a sensitive, decent, straight white male Agastache? I do hope he's surviving being done down all the time.

Vickyyyy · 03/08/2018 12:59

Oh god, another thread that mentions men turning into some men and NAMALT!!!! Because clearly, feminists think every single man on the planet is the same Hmm

I have never understood the need to shout namalt in discussions about, for example, rape. Like, does anyone actually think every man is? Thats a depressing thought.

Thymelord · 03/08/2018 13:04

I would be very interested to find one of these pubs. They sound much better than the ones i've been frequenting all of my adult life. Are they sort of a secret? Do you need a password to get in?

Agastache · 03/08/2018 13:04

Oh god, another thread that mentions men turning into some men and NAMALT!!!! Because clearly, feminists think every single man on the planet is the same

I thought it was the law that every thread had to? Oops.

Clairetree1 · 03/08/2018 13:30

Then the natural conclusion is that those men are not being the kind, sensitive wee souls you'd like to think they are.

100% pure victim blaming, you don't even know the people I'm talking about.

If someone said this about a woman who was being treated badly, they would quite rightly be shot down in flames.

you are no better

Clairetree1 · 03/08/2018 13:37

When I go down the pub, it's full of scary women interrogating men and telling them how they are manning wrong. My DH is scared to come in with me, it's that bad.

mockery

I can well imagine Bertrand the pubs round here are just wall to wall with people slagging off decent, sensitive, straight white men simply for existing. The utter bastards.

mockery

Is he a sensitive, decent, straight white male Agastache? I do hope he's surviving being done down all the time.

mockery

I would be very interested to find one of these pubs. They sound much better than the ones i've been frequenting all of my adult life. Are they sort of a secret? Do you need a password to get in?

mockery

more and more mockery

so your response to be desribing to you my concerns about the bad treatment I see decent people suffering is to repeatedly mock it.

This says quite a lot about you, and the liklihood that you are guilty of treating people badly yourself.

53rdWay · 03/08/2018 13:39

Can you give us some examples of this bad treatment you see happening, Claire? Like, last time you stepped in in the pub when a group of women were unfairly attaching a nice kind sensitive man - what exactly happened?

AnyFucker · 03/08/2018 13:39

claire I wonder what it is you get out of your handmaiden duties

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2018 13:40

Claire- can you give some examples?

I agree that the responses were a bit mocking-but I did ask you for more information and you didn't give it.

Clairetree1 · 03/08/2018 13:41

Interesting that you say you challenge people insulting straight, while men, yet you do not challenge men over their abuse of women.🤨 Even trying (dismally) to defend men as a group regarding their abuse of women.

where did I say I don't challenge men if they abuse women?

Where did I say I defend men regarding their abuse of women.

I am in favour of everyone being treated well and fairly, men and women.

Posters on this thread have said men cannot be feminists, that is totally untrue, some men are. Some men I know are better feminists than some women I know. And they don't necessarily go around stating the fact that they are feminists, although they might say so if asked. Slating them and saying they can't because they are men is a totally ridiculous.

Agastache · 03/08/2018 13:41

Stop mocking him! Or her..or zey, zee, zim, vim, whatever.

Thymelord · 03/08/2018 13:42

*I would be very interested to find one of these pubs. They sound much better than the ones i've been frequenting all of my adult life. Are they sort of a secret? Do you need a password to get in?

mockery*

No shit Sherlock!

^^ also mockery. I can see a theme developing here...

Thymelord · 03/08/2018 13:42

Some men I know are better feminists than some women I know

Haha, stop. No really, stop.

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2018 13:44

I have not and do not "slate men". Can you give ab example of the way straight while men are treated badly- maybe one of the occasions where you stepped in to intervene?

TheCountryGirl · 03/08/2018 13:44

So Claire why don't you give a shit about women suffering at the hands of male violence then? When I mentioned it to you, you dismissed it completely, as if these women were worthless. Even though women suffer FAR MORE at the hands of men than vice versa.

You want us to have compassion for men who suffer - fine! Of course we do.

Just don't dismiss women who suffer at men's hands and don't wave away all the millions of men who are abusive with a flick of your hand and NAMALT!

TheCountryGirl · 03/08/2018 13:45

*where did I say I don't challenge men if they abuse women?

Where did I say I defend men regarding their abuse of women.*

See above post. You demonstrated it very well.

BettyDuMonde · 03/08/2018 13:51

Totally agree with everyone who has said no, but that some men absolutely get it, but those same men wouldn’t claim the label.

I think men with daughters often have a better understanding of it. They don’t notice the restraints of the patriarchy until their daughter butts up against one.

My husband came as a package deal with my step (bonus) daughter and he’s the closest to a feminist man I have personally known - it actually surprises both of us at times because he’s definitely not your typical right-on virtue signaller, but whenever I start telling him about something I’ve read in the news or an issue a friend is facing he immediately responds with a feminist interpretation of the issue.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 03/08/2018 13:52

OK. So saying that men can be feminist allies but not feminists, and laughing at the idea that pubs are typically hostile environments for straight white men - this is somehow morally equivalent to (or more of a social problem than?) endemic male violence and exploitation of women and girls?

Clairetree1 · 03/08/2018 13:58

Claire- can you give some examples?

I agree that the responses were a bit mocking-but I did ask you for more information and you didn't give it

sorry, I missed your question.

For example, on the floor I teach on, there is one straight white man only, and he is such a nice guy, but the whole floor goes to the pub regularly on a Friday evening, and I've seen him regularly shut down and excluded from conversations, up to the point that he started leaving early, sometimes within a few minutes of such a conversation starting, and now doesn't come in at all.

Just off the top of my head, conversations he has been told he is not allowed to participate in have included ideas to promote STEM subjects to younger girls, and the PSHE curriculum during Pride month.

Another example would be a foster son, a straight white guy, very intelligent, massive gaps in his education, being initially included in a scheme to get disadvantaged young people into university. Being told by other students that he doesn't belong in the group, on the basis of being a "privileged" straight white guy - ok, they don't know he spent much of his early teenage years locked in a cupboard, but the staff never defended him and they at least would have been aware he was a looked after child - This is currently a great sadness to me, as he could have been excitedly awaiting A level results right now, with the right encouragement, but instead opted out of education completely before GCSEs

My brother, similar, being judged as "privileged" whilst battling cancer, could not get a lower university offer as he did not fit any of the "underprivileged" criteria at the time ( this was going back a few decades! but even so, it sticks) anyway, in his case he got into a "lesser" university and is now the best in the world in his field, so he got there in the end, through a harder route.

generally at school, I see some male students with an awful attitude to women, and some girls too ( one of my tutorgroup in all seriousness told me a few months ago that you knew almost everything you needed to know about someone as soon as you knew they were female!!)

obviously that need challenging and challenging every single time.

But I get sad to see young girls throwing accusations around when they are not justified, when a boy has done better than them by doing better than them, for example, and seeing decent caring young teenage boys hurt by being included in anti male rhetoric from staff, or students.

it is very polarising, and unfair, and more likely to do harm than good.

So yes, I do believe that many men are good feminists, it doesn't matter if they want to use that term or not, they are still good feminists, and belittling them, excluding them and accusing them of the crime of being male is sexist.

Clairetree1 · 03/08/2018 14:00

These are just examples, and that man in the pub is just one of many times I have seen similar

Clairetree1 · 03/08/2018 14:02

See above post. You demonstrated it very well

nonsense, absolute rubbish, I spend much of my free time volunteering to support victims of violence, I don't dismiss it at all.

How much of your spare time to you spend volunteering to support victims of male violence?

TheCountryGirl · 03/08/2018 14:12

Mmnnnn well let's see, I first started volunteering with disadvantaged women in 1998. Five years later I got a full time job working with disadvantaged women and have done that since. So twenty years now. And I would never EVER dismiss them with NAMALT.

Clairetree1 · 03/08/2018 14:15

I didn't say working, I said volunteering, giving up your spare time,from your most, I imagine that it is none,

just a bit you did 20 years ago?

I work with disadvantaged children all day every day, I am a teacher, that is my job, I asked how much of your spare time you voluntarily give up to support victims of violence, your answer is none, but I did once several decades ago

Melanippe · 03/08/2018 14:18

Claire when someone comes here and doesn't answer questions (it wasn't just Bertrand who asked you for examples) they get mocked. It's happened to all of us. You know this, because you have posted here under a different screenname.

The stories you came up with are interesting but not indicative of what you were claiming.

That being said, I find it astounding that no one defended the lad who had been in care, given that so much emphasis is placed on supporting care leavers in my institution, and I would go back to them and read them the riot act.