Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today

[placemats]

The argument for and against seems to be

either: 'Strongly oppressive'

or: 'Discriminatory'

What's the difference between these two? Personally I welcome the ban.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/01/danish-burqa-ban-comes-into-effect-amid-protests

I don't agree with the ban. These women are controlled enough by the be-penised in their lives. What it does is just force them to stay home.

I used to live in East London, high Muslim population. I could feel the eyes of the dudes boring into me for daring to be womaning in public without some kind of covering. I have an inkling of what they must face in coercion at home.

I used to have a silk scarve that doubled as a headcovering-umbrella when it rained. Noticeable difference in attitude towards me (even though, doing it for rain reasons, not religious/patriarchy compliance!)

I think it's a delicate issue. The comparison with wearing a kippah or turban in public is ridiculous. The problem with the niqab in this context is that it is more than religiously identifying clothing, it's that there are certainly some women who are under considerable pressure to wear it.
Undoubtedly, there are many women who choose to wear it as a sign of their stronger piety, too.

But the difficulty with wearing a face veil in a western setting is that culturally, covering the face is seen as a negative thing - people wearing masks in public are rarely acceptable.

So this seems to be, at base, a difficulty arising out of a cultural clash, and therefore an integration issue.

I really wish it could be banned, but it would just create more problems overnight. This is exactly what happened in France and female students were immediately pulled out of school and not allowed out of the house. Before, they could get an education; now they can't.

I don’t really like to see women dresses like this as I’m concerned about coercion and the idea that women have to be covered rather than men shouldn’t look at them inappropriately
However, I’m also uncomfortable with the state telling people what they can wear

I can't understand the cultural clash and integration issue at all.

Wearing the veil in public selectively marks them out as those women who are totally compliant to men.

I don't agree with this, some of these women will have been socialised to only feel comfortable wearing it, and in that situation its similar to telling us we have to wear shorts/crop tops even if its out of our cultural comfort zone.
I think a better way would be to try and put an age limit on it, so that young girls aren't being socialised into wearing them, but the women who already are and may feel they want to continue have a choice.

How will they police it? Surely short of arresting someone for wearing it they can't enforce it and I hope they wouldn't be arresting women for following something that may be being imposed on them by family members etc.

I can understand saying faces need to be uncovered when you access some services but not banning Islamic dress.
I have reservations about bans for a couple of reasons:

1. Some women do choose to express their religion that way and who am I to tell them otherwise?
2. The women who are oppressed into being fully covered won't suddenly start being uncovered. They will become prisoners in their homes and small communities, not access services and their access to life beyond patriarchal oppression becomes limited. This places these women in a much more vulnerable position where they are more at risk.

Is it inconceivable that people may choose to wear a burqa? Or a niqab? (They aren't the same.)
Inconceivable to many, including me, but I don't believe anyone should be told they can't. That smacks of condescension and massive assumptions 'oh these poor women, all oppressed'. A better approach would be to allow and facilitate these women to speak for themselves.

I agree with the ban.

The more we normalise women having to cover up like this the more women will be forced to do this.

Anyone covering their face in society is a red flag to me. We shouldn't have men walking round in balaclavas either.

I’m also uncomfortable with the state telling people what they can wear

Me too and I dislike bans on the hijab or other religious items of clothing, but we do also have some social norms around presentation that are enforced by the state. You can't walk around in public wearing nothing, for instance.

Other people being able to see and identify your face is another basic social norm in the West. Covering your face in public is such an affront to all the norms we have around social interaction, I think it is reasonable to forbid it.

I don't agree with the ban. These women are controlled enough by the be-penised in their lives. What it does is just force them to stay home

this

if Denmark really cared about these women they'd be helping them to gain enough independence that we can all be sure that they're wearing this garment entirely of their own accord.

Reminds me of those pictures of the french police forcing a woman to remove her clothes [[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/french-police-make-woman-remove-burkini-on-nice-beach - a burkini]

busy
You do realise that the ban won't liberate oppressed women? They'll be told by their fathers and husbands that they can't go out and their world will shrink and they become even more vulnerable.

No family based on sexist principles is going to suddenly go oh covering up is banned. Ok my lovely wife you can go out dressed how you like. Be free!

So, would we rather have the state telling us what we can and can't wear or some sexist, misogynistic male cockwomble.

Tough choice - no choice. Screwed either way.

It’s always fun to watch lefties tie themselves in knots over this issue.

Pro-burqua? Misogynist!

Anti-burqua? Islamopobe!

Great entertainment.

A person has to remove their motor cycle helmet when entering a public building and this includes supermarkets, shops etc.

This link is about clothing laws by country but the main focus is on lack of clothing apart from Qatar which has specific laws on women dressing modestly.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country

BonnieF
Wanting to ban religious clothing is intolerant.
Equally, women being forced to wear clothing to cover up is misogynistic.

Why not say 'it's expected that face coverings are not worn when accessing services' and have female staff available? Then look at educating women and communities so they can make an informed choice for themselves.

No knots to be had from this centre leftie.

If the state is going to get involved, they would be better coming up with a way of tackling women being oppressed. Rather than this ban.

So patriarchy forbids certain dress codes?

Or certain dress codes are an affront to the emancipation of women.

When women decided to take the lead and ride bicycles and not wear corsets, the fear was that they would be confined to the home by their husbands and shunned by their peers.

Wearing the veil in public selectively marks them out as those women who are totally compliant to men.

Which is exactly what these men want.

I'm not tying myself in knots over this.

In this society we don't cover our faces. If you want to live in this society then don't cover your face. This applies to both men and women.

Simples.

If the state is going to get involved, they would be better coming up with a way of tackling women being oppressed. Rather than this ban.

This.
Forcing women to stay at home, or refusing them permission to see a male doctor for a smear test is coercion in the context of an abusive relationship, and a right when its in the context of a religion or culture.

What is it about men's behaviour that is so difficult to tackle or change?

Yes, I agree that the basis of the oppressive element here is the male component (as always). I think there are good intentions behind this kind of ban, but it's focused again on women's clothing or behaviour.

I do think those are separate issues from the cross-cultural difficulty of it being unacceptable in the west to cover your face in public, whoever you are.

Yes I’m really concerned that women will just be forced to stay in the house and become more isolated.

Hasn’t France done something similar and haven’t they arrested/fined women?

I see the ban as a way forward to tackling women's oppression.

Women are able to organise for themselves as intelligent adult human beings.

Breaking the shackles of oppression starts with the recognition that women are not the property of men.

There are many women who are confined to the home and they don't wear the veil. They are in coercive relationships.

Has anyone ever tried to ban ultra-Orthodox Jewish women from wearing thick tights, wigs, knee-length skirts and long-sleeved tops?