Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today

[placemats]

The argument for and against seems to be

either: 'Strongly oppressive'

or: 'Discriminatory'

What's the difference between these two? Personally I welcome the ban.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/01/danish-burqa-ban-comes-into-effect-amid-protests

There are comparisons being made on here which are just nonsensical "what aboutery".

Like you, it gets taken off once in and settled because thermal gear is bloody warm, but I would be a bit irritated if someone told me I had to sort myself out in the cold before going in the pub. Somehow I don't think anyone would though because I'm white

You would be expected to remove your face covering once you are indoors. Are you seriously suggesting it is normal practice to keep your face covered by a balaclava indoors?

How far can the ban though? what about Goths who wear big long black coats? will we eventually ban those? Jewish men and women who wear hats or wigs and again big loose black outerwear?

None of them are hiding their faces.

In this country it is a choice and a choice made by women. That is a fact.

People should be allowed to wear what they like.

Also it's insulting to Muslim women who wish to wear veils that cover their head to compare their religious or mainly cultural views on the matter to work and vocational coverings as this is a discussion about the full coverage of women, i.e burqa and niqab.
If the line is going to be that being covered up is a problem and oppressive to women by virtue of being covered (regardless of a woman's choice) then all coverings should be up for discussion.

I think that's the point people are making.

Either it's an issue with women being covered and faces being covered being suspicious and has nothing at all to do with targeting Islamic dress (in which case all coverings and religious dress should be up for discussion), or it is people taking an issue with religious dress of one religion, Islam, because they don't like it (in which case it's islamophobia).

I find it odd to hear arguments all for women's choices, except the ones that people don't agree with. 'Oh It's not that I have an issue with Islamic dress... nooo, just all those other coverings don't count in this discussion'.

I see the prevalence of all forms of extreme modest clothing (where a woman is covering up her body for religious/cultural reasons) as an affront to the rights that women have to be equal. It pains me when I see a woman wearing a shroud. It signals oppression. And it is being normalised.

On the face of it, I'd like to think this was done out of concern for women and women's rights.

However it's actually done to whip up hysteria about immigration in Denmark, make it clear that the only good Dane is one who looks and behaves exactly the same as all the other Danes and has no benefit to the actual niqab wearing woman at all.

I love Denmark a lot but the 'liberal values' thing is a myth. You have to fit in. They only managed it successfully while they were a monoculture.

I find it odd to hear arguments all for women's choices, except the ones that people don't agree with. 'Oh It's not that I have an issue with Islamic dress... nooo, just all those other coverings don't count in this discussion'

More absurd whataboutery. Do you really see no difference between a burga /niqab which turns a person into a faceless , walking tent and the other examples of clothes.

What it seems to me is, if you want to live in Denmark then live like Danish people. If you want to carry on as you are then you shouldn't have moved

I can also see some similarities

What are those similarities?

Police uniform? Nazi uniform? Klu klux clan hood? A mask? Only a thong?

All societies have cultural norms when it comes to clothing. I think it's fine for western societies to as well. I don't want to live in a society where its ok for people to hide their faces. I find it imtimidating. And I hate the message that veiling conveys - hide your sinful face women to avoid tempting men.

Similarities to other Danes?

What is this similarity? Can you explain? Because I see it as veil wearing is acceptable for religious and cultural reasons but not the burqa or niqab for obvious reasons.

This man is a Danish national and plays for his country.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yussuf_Poulsen

Do you really see no difference between a burga /niqab which turns a person into a faceless , walking tent and the other examples of clothes.

I see a situation where people are of the view that female choices are only valued if they are choices that align with their idea of liberation, hence why it's pick n mix on religious clothing and face coverings.

I don't believe women should be forced to cover up beause of sexist views of women. I also don't believe that they should be forced not to cover up because anotjer group of people have decided what's best for women. In both situations people are deciding what they think is best for women.

I'd happily have it so that to access certain services people must have their faces visible (Muslim women who cover are cab uncover in the presence of women so have female staff around).
I feel hugely uncomfortable with the idea that one line of telling women what to do is oppressive, only to replace it with another rule about how women should dress.

if you want to live in Denmark then live like Danish people. If you want to carry on as you are then you shouldn't have moved
To go nicely with other posters comparing women to tents.

Let's go the full way and start talking about "British Values" and keeping Britain British whilst we're at it. All these people living in our country with their customs. It's political correctness gone mad.

People should be allowed to wear what they like.

Quite frankly if I walked down the high street wearing a thong and a bra, I think the police would be called. I'm a middle aged woman who has had children. You get the picture?

On that point, I really do not want to shop in a supermarket with men walking around wearing just skimpy, and I mean skimpy, shorts - observed this the other day, thankfully it wasn't in my town.

Quite frankly if I walked down the high street wearing a thong and a bra, I think the police would be called.
Of course they wouldn't be called!

If you want to carry on as if you haven't left off you shouldn't have moved

What about refugees? Should we just say they shouldn't have moved?

Or women being able to make their own choices about what they wear?

In Denmark people would be up in arms to defend your right to sunbathe naked in the city park but apparently the world will cave in if one woman walks about with her face covered

Personally I find burkas offensive. British women died for equality and these people are actively taking a step backward by signifying their subordinate status through their dress. IMO anything that signifies women are second class citizens should be illegal.

But men and women can both sunbathe naked Anna and also together, it's not just confined to one sex. On the other hand it's just women who have to walk around totally covered.

This isn’t about Islam
It is the Saudi wahabi group that have got people on board with this.
Face covering hasn’t been Islamic until recently.

And if men start covering their faces, that'd be ok then would it? I'd find it frankly terrifying.

I disagree with the law telling people how to dress but face coverings are different. I saw a few in London today and they do offens me. They should be banned because it is completely incompatible with our culture and values and represents a deeply offensive and misogynistic view of women.

Deeply misogynistic views of women are not going to be changed overnight by banning face coverings.
I find the ‘Oh, not nuns, of gosh, we don’t mean nuns ! ‘ hilarious.
So much dismissed out of hand because it’s not Our Religion, not one we know of and are comfortable with.

Placemats where do you think is an appropriate nude sunbathing place?

Because you have just posted that you don't want to shop somewhere where men walk around in skimpy shorts.

Well Denmark you can walk around in skimpy shorts and nude sunbathing isn't going to be limited to a small place where the nudists do it. It's supposedly a country which stands up for choice!

But only choices they like. An articulate informed woman who chooses the niqab - well, she's made the wrong choice.

Denmark is awash with dogwhistle, anti-immigration, anti-Muslim laws and politics. This is just something that pretends to be about women but isn't. A bit like Tommy Robinson and the EDL going on about girls in Rotherham when he really is just interested in himself and being racist.

Godwin's Law then Anna?

Is that all you can resort to when discussing this?

How FUCKING DARE YOU compare me to the likes of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and the EDL.

You are no lover of women's rights Anna

Thank you for showing your true colours on this.

From the police guidelines:
If the officer suspects that the person is under coercion, then the officer must assess whether there is reason enough to investigate further, and whether the person needs help and support eg if the person says they are forced to wear it.

My translation from the summary from DR which is danish bbc