Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today

[placemats]

The argument for and against seems to be

either: 'Strongly oppressive'

or: 'Discriminatory'

What's the difference between these two? Personally I welcome the ban.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/01/danish-burqa-ban-comes-into-effect-amid-protests

Denmark is awash with dogwhistle, anti-immigration, anti-Muslim laws and politics. This is just something that pretends to be about women but isn't. A bit like Tommy Robinson and the EDL going on about girls in Rotherham when he really is just interested in himself and being racist. THIS IS SO FUCKING TRUE!!!

Bold fail but hey.

I see a situation where people are of the view that female choices are only valued if they are choices that align with their idea of liberation

Neither nuns' habits nor hijabs align with my idea of liberation, Maisy, but I don't care if women wear them, because they don't prevent normal social interaction.

You and Saucery are being either obtuse or disingenuous, by pretending that this is about religious prejudice, or skirts or long-sleeved tops, or anything but niqabs and burqas - because they hide the face.

On the one hand I hate women told they can’t wear something but in this case I am all for the ban, and wish it was in place in UK. The more you see this (and in central London now you see it a lot) the more normal it looks, and I don’t ever want it to be normal.

This. I don't want it to be normalised, I support the ban.

Have they outlawed all mask wearing in public or just masks worn for religious purposes?

Confining observant women to their homes by law is cruel, in my opinion.

It''s not 'religious' bewildered it's a cult.

Morocco has banned the wearing of the burqa.

theconversation.com/why-moroccos-burqa-ban-is-more-than-just-a-security-measure-72120

Wearing the burqa is seen by many secular Islamic countries as ultra right wing.

Well Morocco hasn't banned the wearing of the burqa it has banned the sale and production of it.

Which is probably the reasonable and sensible way to to approach the problem.

Banning the face veil won’t change deeply misogynistic values overnight but they will send a strong message that those values are not acceptable in our society.

“ I do worry that a burqa/niqab will further legitimize anti-Islamic sentiment.”

I worry about this too but, on balance, still support the ban.

Unfortunately many will see it as victimisation of certain communities. I don’t know how that could be prevented.

There was a brilliant post earlier in this thread about giving a voice to the nany muslim women who are campaigning against face covering. That is the way forward in my view.

To go nicely with other posters comparing women to tents

I didn't say that- - one can have no idea who is underneath a burqa, niqab.

I see a situation where people are of the view that female choices are only valued if they are choices that align with their idea of liberation, hence why it's pick n mix on religious clothing and face coverings

Nope , not all. I oppose the wearing of clothes which hide the wearers' face. ..

An articulate informed woman who chooses the niqab - well, she's made the wrong choice.

Yes, she has. She has made a choice to adopt an extremely antisocial form of dress, which prevents others from interacting with her in a normal way. She is choosing to be rude by insisting on hiding her face during all social interactions, and further insisting that other people pretend there isn't something completely weird and discomforting about trying to interact with a faceless person.

FWIW I don't believe that most women who adopt the niqab or burqa in the West are being forced to do so. I believe the burqa defenders when they say that most are choosing to wear it. But their personal choice in this case infringes on other people, by violating the usual rules of social discourse and inflicting discomfort on others. It's reasonable to ask that these women make a different choice, in order to adhere to the basic norms of the society in which they choose to live.

I've had no trouble interacting with women wearing the niqab. Neighbours, mothers of kids I work with. effort is required

"Have they outlawed all mask wearing in public or just masks worn for religious purposes?*

Why not test that out? Try going into a bank or a shop or a pub in Copenhagen wearing a mask which completely hides your face and see how long it takes before you are asked to remove it/ leave/ or the police are called.

DonkeySkin
I have already said I would happily have a requirement that access to some service means showing your face. I also think that it is perfectly reasonable for employers to say face coverings are not permitted in the workplace where there's a big focus on interpersonal relationship building.

I don't believe that a woman's dress should be in the hands of the state, whether that is forcing women to be fully covered with a mesh over their eyes or being told they cannot choose to wear a certain item.

Previously I was in favour of a ban on facial coverings. Then I saw that woman in France being told her swimwear wasn't ok because it was too modest (essentially a hooded wetsuit) and seeing that changed my mind. I'd rather there was a push on education and women's rights and women making informed decisions than banning an item of clothing so people can feel smug about how they've apparnetly reduced women from oppression by removing an item of clothing.

Transplants

I’m sure that’s true but I don’t want to be party of a society where it is deemed normal for women to cover their faces because their faces are ‘immodest’, that their faces must be hidden from male neighbours, male colleagues and male friends. That is so divisive, insulting and depressing.

I agree Maisy

I’m sure that’s true but I don’t want to be party of a society where it is deemed normal for women to cover their faces because their faces are ‘immodest’, that their faces must be hidden from male neighbours, male colleagues and male friends. That is so divisive, insulting and depressing

I agree. And tbh I have no interest in interacting with or making an effort to get to know or understand women who think it is acceptable or reasonable for women to hide their faces.

Lass

Blimey.

I'll tell my neighbour's daughter, who greets me every morning with a smile and brings food over during Ramadan and chats to me about our kids

No placemats. Just familiar with Denmark and its politics.

I have my own, personal views on the niqab and burka.

But Denmark time and time again manages to be a spectacularly racist country. Which is a shame because it's my heritage and I bloody love the place.

Why not test that out? Try going into a bank or a shop or a pub in Copenhagen wearing a mask which completely hides your face and see how long it takes before you are asked to remove it/ leave/ or the police are called.

That would give no information on the laws about mask wearing on the public streets, but nice try, thanks.

I'll tell my neighbour's daughter, who greets me every morning with a smile

Do you have x- ray vision? How do you know they are smiling?

Wearing a niqab which fully hides the face is a display of religious extremism with which I am not interested in engaging. I would have nothing in common with a woman who thinks it is normal and acceptable to hide her face.

That would give no information on the laws about mask wearing on the public streets, but nice try, thanks
Actually it may well do. It may well be the Danish equivalent of Scots law breach of the peace, but clearly even if not illegal it is socially unacceptable.

Why should a religious full face mask get a free pass?