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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today

205 replies

placemats · 01/08/2018 11:39

The argument for and against seems to be

either: 'Strongly oppressive'

or: 'Discriminatory'

What's the difference between these two? Personally I welcome the ban.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/01/danish-burqa-ban-comes-into-effect-amid-protests

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FloralBunting · 01/08/2018 13:11

Well yes, I think it's a bit too easy to see a single measure enacted and that's as far as it goes.

I totally agree that not everyone behind this kind of law with have altruistic motives, but it is a single plank that could be added to by those minded to actually assist women who would be in more difficulties with a ban in place.

We are women, well able to do more than one thing at once.

ScienceIsTruth · 01/08/2018 13:13

Tbh, I'm not sure how I feel about this, as I can see that it may have negative implications for these women.

I do believe that if you decide to live in a particular country then you should try to adopt/live by their rules and be respectful of their societal norms and learn their language.
Whether that's a Muslim country, where you can't then drink alcohol, or show affection/kiss in public, etc, or in a more western country, is irrelevant.

I don't think anyone should be allowed to keep their face covered in public, and that goes for men and women.
If you can't be identified, I think that poses a potential problem in various scenarios.

Also, generally, we use people's facial expressions to guide us when we're interacting with them and this is impossible when their face is covered.

ScienceIsTruth · 01/08/2018 13:19

@FormerlyPickingOakum, thanks for your post, it makes interesting reading, and isn't something that I was aware of.

BestBeforeYesterday · 01/08/2018 13:19

Covering your face in public is such an affront to all the norms we have around social interaction, I think it is reasonable to forbid it.

I agree with this. I also think that the burqa dehumanises women to the point where they barely interact with others at all, and this is inacceptable. We cannot let women be forced into oblivion, whether for religious or cultural reasons is irrelevant. Seeing as it is true that these women will end up segregated in their homes, not allowed to go outside, the the ban needs to be just one of many approaches to establish equality in these Muslim families.

UpstartCrow · 01/08/2018 13:29

It should be possible to discuss issues without the kind of sneering, dismissive post on the first page. No one is tying themselves in knots. It's a discussion, there is more than one POV to consider.

Loopytiles · 01/08/2018 13:30

Agree with some PPs that for cultural and social reasons that IMO outweigh freedom to express their cultural/religious preferences it’s reasonable for the state to ban faces being covered in public.

Also agree though that there is a risk that some women who are subject to domestic abuse may come under pressure not to do things their abusive partner may otherwise allow should their face be covered. But the primary problem there is the abuser.

Interesting and sad about girls and young women being pulled out of school in France . IMO states needs to monitor homeschooling families to ensure DC are receiving adequate education and are not abused.

blueberriesandyogurt · 01/08/2018 13:33

I always thought that burquas were cultural rather than religious.

This is quite interesting

www.facinghistory.org/civic-dilemmas/brief-history-veil-islam

placemats · 01/08/2018 13:37

Yes I agree Upstart I'm finding this discussion very informative, especially the history surrounding the face covering and the cultural and religious aspects to it.

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hackmum · 01/08/2018 13:39

Babdoc: 'If an extreme sect said that its women were only allowed out in public in handcuffs and chained to a male, would you honestly say “Oh, we’d better let them - if we ban the chains, the women will be stuck at home”? '

I can't speak for everyone, but my problem is with criminalising the women. In your hypothetical case, I'd hope that it was the men who were criminalised, not the women.

hearmyvoice · 01/08/2018 13:44

im going to be wildly unpopular here but what the fuck... I know a couple of women who WANT to wear the niqab and many who wear the hijab even though there own mothers and sisters and in-laws or whatever DON'T wear them. so who's coercing them? no one!
I don't cover myself because its not my belief but who is anyone else to tell someone what to wear
yes there are some who are forced to wear it and for them I really truly wish they didn't have to but they will just be kept shut in the house instead which isn't fair.

I do still kindof welcome the niqab ban because i hate not being able to see a face but the burqa covers the body not the face and who the fuck is anyone else to tell a woman she HAS to show off her body?
How far can the ban though? what about Goths who wear big long black coats? will we eventually ban those? Jewish men and women who wear hats or wigs and again big loose black outerwear?

shall i put my order in for a red handmaid style cloak and white wings already?

FloralBunting · 01/08/2018 13:49

hearmyvoice, I don't you're going to be wildly unpopular - tbh, it does seem there is a broad consensus here that women should not be compelled to wear or not wear any style of dress.

From what I've read, and I'm happy to be corrected here, the ban is about covering the face, not dressing very modestly and covering the hair/head. Happy to be corrected on that.

On the topic of women freely choosing to do it, all well and good - but you wouldn't be allowed in my place of work wearing a balaclava, even if you really wanted to wear it, so in this case, free will doesn't necessarily come in to it.

BiologyIsReal · 01/08/2018 13:52

Thought experiment: if the male members of the family where women wear the burka/niquab were also forced to wear the same clothing all the time in public, any guesses how long it would be before the 'culture' changed?

SheepyFun · 01/08/2018 13:55

What exact face coverings are banned? I live in the UK, and in the winter I cover my face when cycling - my lungs thank me. A fair fraction of other cyclists (both male and female) do the same. Would that be banned? How would you frame legislation to permit it - is it the same as wearing a motorbike helmet? (I uncover my face as soon as I dismount, so similar to a motorbike helmet.) Just saying that legislating such a ban isn't straightforward.

placemats · 01/08/2018 13:56

hearmyvoice

This is about facial coverings. Not the wearing of heavy coats. Even the handmaidens showed their face. (I can't imagine the Handmaid's Tale being televised if all the women involved had their face covered.)

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placemats · 01/08/2018 13:57

Sheepy do you wear this at work? Whilst in a shop? At the bank?

If not, then why not?

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hearmyvoice · 01/08/2018 14:08

ok so maybe I have it wrong but burqas don't cover the face niqabs do?
still I think it won't be long until more and more items of clothing are banned.
like I said I don't agree with covering ones face myself and especially if a woman is being told she has to. But what about those who want to? I think someone who wants to will be aware that she won't be allowed in certain places for security reasons but that's something they have to accept.

placemats · 01/08/2018 14:10

People have to wear masks when in an operating theatre. I'm pretty sure that wearing a burqa in an operating theatre would not be allowed. There are coverings for the hijab, though most take them off and wear the other head coverings.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2586695-Surely-there-must-be-a-third-way-of-making-a-hijab-fit-for-the-operating-theatre

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placemats · 01/08/2018 14:12

www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241

The difference between all the veils.

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ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2018 14:25

I don't believe in policing women's attire, and policing women who are already being policed may be worse.

Requiring obscuring headcoverings to be removed in situations where they are inappropriate such as banks, courts etc should always be allowed, regardless of whether they are religious or protective (helmets etc). No privilege, no discrimination.

I wish it was possible to punish anyone who coerced a woman to wear a burka - in practice I can't see how it could be done.

Windmillinthewind · 01/08/2018 14:34

I’m glad! And. Hope the U.K has the calls to do it too.

First pic shows women protesting in the 70s in Iran over forced head covering. If they didn’t comply with it or their curfew they were shot.

Second picture shows a Syrian women burning her burka after being liberated from ISIS control

Funny isn’t it that Women in countries where True oppression is they fight to get rid of it. And in countries where it’s much more relaxed, where most of the people have never been to Syria/Iran ect or suffered true oppression - advocate wearing it

Go figure ...

Men forced this and women in softer countries swallowed it up

Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today
Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today
PersianCatLady · 01/08/2018 14:52

Anyone covering their face in society is a red flag to me. We shouldn't have men walking round in balaclavas either
I couldn't agree more

FormerlyPickingOakum · 01/08/2018 14:53

The thing is this none of this is new.

The niqab (though it wasn't called that then, but I cannot remember what the word was) was banned in the Ottoman Empire in the late 19th century due to security concerns. So this is the largest Sunni Muslim empire in history banning face veils not that long ago (ie. in my grandmother's day).

What is fascinating is the evolution of the thick face veil (as opposed to the gossamer face veil) and the arguments about its history. For example, the Iranians seem to generally be under the impression it is originally Jewish. Then there's arguments that it is originally Greek.

But what I suspect is the case is that the current incarnation of the niqab is a merging of the bedouin cultural practice of covering the nose and the lower face (the veil secured by a chain around the head)
but not the hair (which makes utter sense in terms of the climate and sun exposure) and the Islamic hijab/hairscarf... which makes it very interesting in terms of an Arab cultural mashup that's been formed from practicality smashing against religion, and then adopted as a sign of a kind of Sunni Islamic puritanism.

Interestingly, and as a counterpoint to the Arab bedouin perspective, facial coverings for females in the Middle East, North Africa and Spain are historically associated with upper class women so you've got that playing into it as well.

And the whole thing kinda defeats the object anyway. Look at what happened in Afghanistan when the Taliban enforced the burqua? Men just constantly bumped into women on the street to cop a feel. And the mental health rates of women plummeted through the floor and the rates of osteoporosis shot through the roof.

Branleuse · 01/08/2018 15:00

i dont like the burqua and am not against it banned, but i do think you would have to do the same for other extreme religious coverings such as nuns habits

FormerlyPickingOakum · 01/08/2018 15:00

I forgot to mention that in some bedouin traditions, probably because of the practice of covering the nose and thus the lower face, a woman's nose became a kind of secondary sexual characteristic.

Noses are very erotic in some bedouin cultures, so for those traditional women to uncover their faces might be a bit like asking us to get our boobs out.

But it's not traditional bedouin women who are wearing the niqab in Europe.

FloralBunting · 01/08/2018 15:03

Why would a face veil ban necessitate a ban on nun's habits?