Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today

[placemats]

The argument for and against seems to be

either: 'Strongly oppressive'

or: 'Discriminatory'

What's the difference between these two? Personally I welcome the ban.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/01/danish-burqa-ban-comes-into-effect-amid-protests

How common is it for women to wear the burka as opposed to the hijab and niqab in the UK?

I've never seen one being worn, but I do live in a non-diverse area and am largely housebound.

If I was on the fringe of a burqa wearing culture, which I am not, I would now wear one because of the ban, just to make a statement. It's only a thin piece of material covering other clothing and no burqa-wearing woman would cover her face completely if she was working with others or had an appointment.

It's an outrage to ban it. I hope we in the UK don't follow.

Since anti-Muslim sentiment has become so widespread, more young woman are wearing the hijab over here (which can look quite fetching). They saying, "I'm a Muslim. So what?". I can imagine seeing the burqa around if it is banned here - but atm we don't see much of it.

Stormy, I saw a few in one of the places I lived in the North a few years ago. I've seen maybe one in my current town, though the niqab is much more common place here.

Long, heavy dresses and sleeves, hijabs, Hasidic wigs, high heels and pencil skirts are all deliberately constraining forms of dress whose purpose is to inflict bodily discomfort on the wearer and mark her out as a member of the subordinate sex caste. I dislike them, but I'm against banning them.

The niqab and burkha are different. The issue with them is not that they are sexist (which they obviously are), but that they cover the face, which makes any normal social interaction impossible, and arouses suspicion. It's reasonable to say that they are not acceptable in society.

placemats I only cover my face while actually cycling - it's protection against breathing in very cold air. I remove the scarf as soon as I go indoors (not least because I would then overheat otherwise). However I do wear it outdoors in public, assuming roads are a public place. My understanding is that in some places, being seen in public wearing a niqab is illegal (France?), which is different to being in a public building (where e.g. motorbike helmets are routinely banned). I'm just pointing out possibly unintended side effects of banning the niqab/burka/face covering 'in public'.

I don't think that covering yourself head to toe to avoid arousing men (this is both the cultural and religious basis of burka/niquab/hijab etc) but at the same time I don't think that banning it is helpful. The reason why ultra religious communities are a problem is because they self segregate, this will only encourage them to keep their wives/daughters at home all the time. This is very out of sight out of mind. Governments should be implementing policies that encourage integration instead like mandatory English lessons for all new arriving immigrants (which could also be used as an opportunity to infirm newly arrived women of their rights in the UK and organisations that offer help to women in need). Thus will also make it harder to get Muslim communities on board for integration, Liberal Muslims are like a gateway drug into Liberal society for the ultra Conservative. These kinds of things just serve to further divide Muslims between devout (medival) Muslims and westernised Muslims who aren't interested in acting the victim/fighting to create an Islamic country.

Anyone covering their face in society is a red flag to me. We shouldn't have men walking round in balaclavas either

I was out wearing a balaclava wielding blades this winter.... hacking back brambles with loppers on a local nature reserve in a bitter wind. And just the job when sitting in a chilly bird hide.... well, maybe that doesn't count as 'in society'.

I feel uncomfortable about any "laws" which prescribe what women and and cannot wear. Whether that be Saudi Arabia or Denmark

sheepy
I have a buff which I pull up to my eyes and a close-fitting windproof softshell jacket that fits to my head. I use it throughout autumn and winter like you to avoid cold air when running or walking. When I go into a pub after a day walking people can only see my eyes.
Like you, it gets taken off once in and settled because thermal gear is bloody warm, but I would be a bit irritated if someone told me I had to sort myself out in the cold before going in the pub. Somehow I don't think anyone would though because I'm white.

I don’t agree with banning it. I do think secular westerners should spend more time and energy supporting the many secular Muslims who argue against niquab, burka and hijab. Mona El Tahawi came to Bradford to discuss with all headscarfed women in a panel at Bradford lit fest. Mixed audience though. My stealthy freedom needs shouting about. Maryann Namazie is another woman who talks about women covering in public and needs more support. Maajid Nawas is great on twitter talking sense about what religion means and the Egyptian writer Nawaal El Saadawi still talks about FGM and covering in her 80s. People like them could be much more convincing than a ban if people weren’t so cowardly about being perceived to be prejudiced. It’s not prejudice. It’s practical, reasonable, realistic, to have comfortable appropriate clothing codes that apply to both men and women. Also I don’t agree that men make women do this. Women can be heavily into religion and invested in the idea of themselves as ‘good’ I have an evangelical sister. She’d wear a niquab like a shot if it was an option

I'm torn. I hate that women in some communities are forced to wear these items - can it ever be a really FREE choice when women say they choose it? Not sure. But I want these women to be a full part of society and not have horrible men shut them away because they are deemed immodest.

I suppose I hope that banning these items might show the menfolk just how backwards and unacceptable their misogyny is. That most people despise women being treated this way. But that is probably naive.

MaisyPops I'm also white (very pale skin and eyes), and tend not to wear the flowing robes that most niqab wearers do - they would make cycling more tricky. So no-one is likely to look at me and think I'm wearing a niqab, so I'd be pretty unlikely to be hassled.

Having read up a little more on the Danish law, it appears that it applies to anywhere in public (including outdoors) as there is special provision for:

“recognisable purposes” such as cold weather or complying with other legal requirements, for example using motorcycle helmets under Danish traffic rules.

I can just imagine the can of worms that will get opened in court as to what is and isn't a 'recognisable purpose'.

I see the ban as a way forward to tackling women's oppression.

How would you police this? Forcing a woman wearing a burqa to take it off? Yes, forcing women to take off articles of clothing is freeing them of oppression isn't it

It NEEDS to be banned in all free thinking countries because it highlights the other countries where women have no voice and no choice.

Is the same as turning the other cheek. And it’s no surprise that young British women are fighting to wear one because they have never ever experienced true frightening oppression.

But I supppse you always get turkeys voting for Xmas

Errol the Dragon, if you insisted on wearing that balaclava not to perform a specific task, but to the shops, to work, to university and everywhere you went in public, you would regarded as extremely antisocial, at best, and no one would be able to interact with you in anything approaching normal fashion.

This isn't about fashion choices and it's not about how best to dismantle the oppression of women in the Middle East (which Westerners can't do anyhow). This is about respecting basic norms of presentation and interaction which encourage a functioning, equal and open society. The niqab and burkha violate those norms.

i dont like the burqua and am not against it banned, but i do think you would have to do the same for other extreme religious coverings such as nuns habits

Oh come off it. There is no comparison with the a burqa and nuns' habits. Aside from the fact nuns' habits are only required for the miniscule number of Christian women who make a positive choice to enter holy orders not even the most all enveloping habit ever covered the face. It is a completely false comparison.

I think a law preventing the covering of your face in public, except for reasonable purposes, and time periods, related to specific jobs and activities, is reasonable and enforceable.

There may be some initial test cases to establish some examples of jobs and activities where this is required for specific times. Fine.

If some women are then prevented by a misogynistic cultural religious sect from accessing society then let's focus on and highlight the treatment of those women by that group.

We should have laws which establish our norms and values.

Religious groups who use laws to oppress women should then be shamed by wider society.
But we shouldn't make our laws to appease misogynistic religious groups treatment of women.

I don’t really like to see women dresses like this as I’m concerned about coercion and the idea that women have to be covered rather than men shouldn’t look at them inappropriately

However, I’m also uncomfortable with the state telling people what they can wear

Of the 2 I find the first more problematic. I support a ban.

Yes, forcing women to take off articles of clothing is freeing them of oppression isn't it

That's my thinking. I used to be in favour of banning it on the grounds that it's oppressing women. But after seeing the lady in France being told what she should wear whilst swimming I changed my mind. There is nothing liberating in telling a woman what to wear, whether that is forcing them to cover up or forcing them to show more flesh than they want.

There may be some initial test cases to establish some examples of jobs and activities where this is required for specific times. Fine

There really wouldn't be any need for this. Jobs where face covering is necessary- surgery and dentistry, welding, working with corrosive materials, travelling at high speed on a motor bike, riot control police. Basically any job or activity where the participant , whether man or women , wears face covering for safety reasons.

Can we please not compare a nun's habit with the burqa. It's totally different, as well people know. This is a religious vocation that requires chastity.

Also wearing a balaclava whilst working in a situation that requires it is also totally different, as well people know.

As for the bike thing. Give it a rest please with your lycra bodysuit. As people know, this is totally different.

Also it's insulting to Muslim women who wish to wear veils that cover their head to compare their religious or mainly cultural views on the matter to work and vocational coverings as this is a discussion about the full coverage of women, i.e burqa and niqab.

Has anyone ever tried to ban ultra-Orthodox Jewish women from wearing thick tights, wigs, knee-length skirts and long-sleeved tops?

Oh please, can you really see no difference between those and a burqa?

Yes. I can see some difference. But I can also see some similarities

On the one hand I hate women told they can’t wear something but in this case I am all for the ban, and wish it was in place in UK. The more you see this (and in central London now you see it a lot) the more normal it looks, and I don’t ever want it to be normal.

One of the hot days recently I went to Southend. There were lots of women covered up on or near the beach - not face covered but long dark robes and head covered. Their male companions were cool as cucumbers in shorts and tees or swimming trunks. I hate to see this. I don’t care how many times I am told that women choose to dress like this because it is how they choose to respect their religion, this is done because their misogynistic religion requires them to do so. Even if they think it is their free will it has emerged out of a lifetime of domination from the male members of their families and religion.

this is done because their misogynistic religion requires them to do so

It is not a requirement of Islam to be completely covered.