Daughter with ROGD - issues with school

[Hoggirl765]

My daughter presents with ROGD. Her school is going forward with affirming this by way of calling her by her boys name and male pronouns. That's all so far. This despite our repeated requests to step back and watch and wait - to go at our pace as a family (basically back off). She has had a lot of emotional upheaval in her short life and has always found it hard to fit in. We have found a wonderful counsellor and that's all we're prepared to do at present. She is just 14 and at present is very enthusiastic and keyed into her school work and in general seems happy. No self harm etc. The school have caused us as a family so much unnecessary stress and then said that's it you'll have to wait til September now. If it wasn't for the excellent teaching we would be moving her. Has anyone else has experiences with unsupportive, insensitive or unsympathetic schools?

This mother has not asked for ideological advice. This mother has established a care plan for her child, engaged a therapist and is carefully monitoring the child's welfare. She has asked for advice on how to deal with a school that is refusing to co-operate with that care plan.

This is not the thread to have a gender religion vs gender critical ideological battle. This is a support thread for a mother with a very specific issue. This all delineated with absolute clarity in the OP.

I've read some shitty things on here but accusing this mother of being a safeguarding risk to her own child really does have to take the world's entire supply of biscuits.

Anything you can do, OP, in the off chance you are still reading, to try to get your DC out of their head and into the world where ‘gender’ isn’t everything, could be very helpful.

Actual helpful advice! We may be able to re-rail this thread yet.

Best thing you can do is get your child off the internet and out of their current obsessive headspace for a while, OP. The summer holidays are a great time to do that. Take trips together if you can get the time away from work/other responsibilities, go for long walks, laze around in the garden soaking up the sun while it last. Try to shift the balance from screen time to real world interaction with a wide range of people.

Pronouns. It's all about fucking pronouns isn't it? Like if you can get parents to at least call their child by a certain pronoun (which incidentally has fuck all to do with their gender identity because pronouns denote the sex of someone but hey ho) then it's some kind of 'gotcha', some kind of little win over the parents.

Snappity, you came on this thread and immediately started referring to the OPs daughter as 'he' with barely any information about the situation. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

This is an interview with Stephanie Davis Arai (founder of Transgender Trend). Its a long discussion and nuanced.

There clearly are people who are very dysphoric but careful screening and talk therapy was the standard protocol. Now this is not allowed. It’s just affirm, affirm and more. Any social moves regarding pronouns and name changing is the gateway to hormones and surgery because once your child is caught up in this they are Bullied to the next stage. Trust me. This happens. My child first said it was no big deal and only thinking this to a trans binge on line and a month later requesting puberty blockers. Now my child thinks he will die if he doesn’t be his true authentic self.

Such a clear example of ROGD

So what is going to happen over the summer? We have a young person who has found respite by having his gender identity affirmed at school who, for the next six or seven weeks, is going to be deprived of that. Am I the only one concerned for his welfare?

This from the first page from Snappity. Like I said, this is the gaslighting horseshit that people are coming out with on MN of all places, I dread to think what is being said to teens online.

There's a great deal of discussion and resources being made available this week.
Twitter hashtag #ROGDWEEK2018

Current thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3315676-ROGDWEEK2018

snappity I’ve reported you to MNHQ, yr being offensive & unhelpful. I for one will never engage with you again in these discussions as you don’t answer questions when asked, (ie are you a mum, do you have children?) you don’t respect boundaries & seem to have nothing helpful to contribute- you just enjoy provoking people. Very sad individual that you are.

Given that so many children change their minds, and that the drugs involved have so many terrifying side effects, no to mention the prospect of surgery to remove healthy body parts, breastbinding and its harmful effects on breast tissue, etc -
*Why would any adult not advise caution?
Why are you so keen to see children propelled down this route before they are even old enough to drink?

But allowing a child to explore their gender identity with support from parents is the cautious approach because it allows parents to collaborate in the exploration through open-minded discussion.

If a parent won't accept a gender identity then isn't a child less likely to want to have free and frank discussions with the parent? When you were a child, if your parents said no to something you thought was right, didn't that make you more determined to do it, not less?

Grooming often involves convincing a child that the person doing the grooming understands them better than their parents do and has their best interests more at heart. Now, I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but I am saying that safeguarding guidelines specifically caution against doing anything that replicates that dynamic even if you have the best of intentions because doing so makes things easier for those whose intentions are less good.

safeguarding guidelines specifically caution against doing anything that replicates that dynamic even if you have the best of intentions because doing so makes things easier for those whose intentions are less good.

This!

OP if the school absolutely will not cooperate with the care plan for your child I would consider removing them from the school. However good it is.

But first maybe insist on a meeting in the week before school begins? You could put together a dossier of information to support your approach (letter from GP and counsellor, legal info, info about watch and wait etc). Consider taking legal advice and possibly a solicitor's letter formally stating that the school is going against the recommended approach for your DC and that you do not consent to this. Approach the governors.

Good luck. You sound like a fantastic parent.

Snappity your contributions on this thread are some of the most disturbing I have ever seen on this topic.

Sounds like 6 weeks away from school will be no bad thing.
I would also be requesting a meeting with the school asap at the start of term to insist they follow the care plan which has been put forward by medical professionals as the best way to proceed.
Can you stop/reduce time online so your child has time to think and reflect. Maybe the headspace of the holidays will be good for all of you.

Sorry Op - didn't mean to derail. I think your approach is correct. Good luck.

safeguarding guidelines specifically caution against doing anything that replicates that dynamic even if you have the best of intentions because doing so makes things easier for those whose intentions are less good.

Indeed. So people in a position of trust can never promise non disclosure.

We should be listening to what our children want to do and make our decisions based off that.

Good Lord. That explains a lot.

If the likes of snappity and thatjourno are the recipients of the 'spoilt brat' school of child rearing, little wonder that they struggle to understand others' boundaries.

Any parent who posts for advice on a parenting forum is already demonstrating the correct responsibility in terms of raising children.

truthwillwin

Please either try and ignore these posters, or at least understand their agenda. Snappity's sole job is to get people banned. They say the most outrageous, ridiculous, hurtful things so people react unguardedly.

There is a lot of talk online from TRAs who need to reduce the number of gender critical women who are speaking about this. It's vital.

Snappity's agenda is mply demonstrated by this quite laughable statement.

find it is something unresolved in their make up which they need to explore and understand. The Trans Widows thread shows how damaging and disruptive that can be later in life.

Snappity is talking about abusive, gaslighting men with a sexual fetish that has ruined the lives of their wives and children. But seeing through the lens of the men, rather than the women who have been abused by them.

It's also incredibly sinister for adults to constantly reiterate that we should be listening to our children and what they want. Children who are being groomed online by adults.

snappity, your idea about children 'exploring their identity'? The language you use sounds disturbing. This is not about trying out a new hairstyle, or wondering about whether to be a musician or a sports person.

It's about whether, ultimately, you will be rendering a child infertile, with no sex life, and on medication for the rest of their lives. Or, alternatively, creating a whole swathe of people who become legal adults, with the genitalia of children.

This is a parenting website. These women are mothers. You have absolutely no bloody idea who you are taking on here.

Women, who understand exactly why ten girls come out simultaneously at school. And no, it's not because of something in the bloody water.

But first maybe insist on a meeting in the week before school begins? You could put together a dossier of information to support your approach (letter from GP and counsellor, legal info, info about watch and wait etc). Consider taking legal advice and possibly a solicitor's letter formally stating that the school is going against the recommended approach for your DC and that you do not consent to this. Approach the governors.

This is excellent advice, OP.

You may also find some helpful information in the statutory guidance, especially with regard to online exploitation: www.gov.uk/government/publications/working-together-to-safeguard-children--2

OP JAmes Kirkup Spectator article has some useful embedded links including a lecture given by Dr Polly Carmichael:
'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'

(extract)
"[Stephen Doughty MP] said. “Do you think the use of the phrase “trans lobby” is an appropriate one?”

As it happens, Dr Carmichael in her lecture said some things that seem relevant here:

“Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies. (continues)

Despite its influence, it is worth noting what Mermaids is not. It is not a research body. Its activities are support (for families) and advocacy: based on its contacts with those families, it argues for what it sees are better policies and practices by the NHS and others. It does not carry out or commission clinical or academic research. Its most recent annual report lists among its charitable activities “campaigning and advocacy” and says: “Mermaids has also become more active in lobbying”.

There is regular dialogue between Mermaids and the GIDS, but the two sides do not always agree. An example is on the time the GIDS team take to give referred children the hormone-blocking drugs that stop their bodies developing the physical characteristics associated with their birth sex.

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

Op - just to add to the excellent advice from Dragoncake (and many other posters).

Get the details of who the school is taking their advice from and advise the school that in the event of any harm happening to your child (physical, safeguarding or psychological) as a result of their advice, you will use this information in order to seek compensation for your child.

Of course you may not go down this route but schools that follow advice from organisations openly rolling back safeguarding and encouraging parental alienation in the face of all collected wisdom must be held accountable when children are harmed as a result of their actions.

I would hope schools can recommend something equivalent for home Internet connections.

Duuno if that would help, these are chat rooms and somtimes linked to the children's social activities such as gaming and youtube

Can we compile a list of all the schools that have received training from Mermaids, Allsorts and the rest? FOI requests if necessary?

Yes asking who they are taking advice from would be a good move. Also get a copy of the documentation they are basing their advice on.

It might be worth finding whether the confidential disclosure part is included. Where the advice is that if a child comes out at school, the parents are not to be told if the child doesn't want them to know.

I realise this isn't the situation with you, currently. But finding out whether they have taken on board that stance, would be useful

As it is a direct contradiction of safeguarding protocols and something that could be raised.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who is feeling a sense of anxiety both on your behalf, and with the situation in general.

It's appalling that this is being allowed to happen. You have my every sympathy and full support.

But first maybe insist on a meeting in the week before school begins? You could put together a dossier of information to support your approach

I think more schools and governors should at the least be aware of articles such as this that include the different viewpoints, approaches and the wider picture.

It may well be that in many schools, their response has been very much informed by a small number of children / young people and their parents.

May 2018 Guardian article,
'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'

(extract)
[Stephanie Davies-Arai Transgender Trend founder] says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.”

[Susie Green Mermaids CEO] disagrees, and argues for a biological underpinning to transgender identity: “If a child or young person consistently, insistently and persistently states their feelings, to ignore, punish or repress their gender identity would effectively be reparative therapy.”

At Wadebridge school, Miles’s former headteacher says: “You just have to put the child at the centre of everything to enable that child to feel comfortable and supported. The biggest message I’d want to get out is that this is not a transgender issue, this is a supporting young people issue.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

At Wadebridge school, Miles’s former headteacher says: “You just have to put the child at the centre of everything to enable that child to feel comfortable and supported. The biggest message I’d want to get out is that this is not a transgender issue, this is a supporting young people issue.”

This

Except it seems in terms of things like gender pronouns

YOU threw your toys out the pram when posters use THEY

The not being pressured into a gender goes both bloody ways

We have no idea what pronouns this young person prefers

Well...apart from you!