Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

[happydappy2]

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist? I don't understand how law can not be written in a way that recognises women as women and trans women as trans women.

Thus trans women are treated with respect and dignity, and so are women. This blurring of the lines is helping no one.

Who ever claimed that trans women are women? Unless we can differentiate between the 2 there will always be conflict. Is it too late for reality to kick in here?

And before you start waffling on about intersex you’re in a thread with at least one working scientist.

Also don't post that Nature Op Ed. We have been down that road before.

In reply to Bowl's question "Glitched do you believe humans can change sex?"

You said That's a complex question to answer.

With current medical technology, no. In the future. Maybe.

Which demonstrates a spectacular ignorance of biology.

Agree, if females and trans women are all women, define women and trans women.

Personally, I can’t see what risk these trans women would face using men’s facilities. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Of course they are male, Breton. They may wish not to be male but they are still male. What do people think male and female actually are? Just a costume that you can discard if you don't like it?

Miranda Yardley, a transgender person who identifies as a woman, openly admits that he is male. Are you saying he is mistaken about that? Miranda goes by he/him as pronouns by the way MNHQ.

Ok. So those saying 'biology' this is covered by adult human female.

I am not suggesting that transwomen are adult human females.

I am arguing to expand the definition of women to include both AHF and transwomen.

The trans people I have spoken to want to be free from transphobia and hate crime. I fully support their legal right to be defined as women under the Gender Recognition act - it is the law. They want to live their lives in peace. They bear no animosity to women nor a desire to infiltrate spaces where some women require sanctuary from males, unless they require that same sanctuary. This is just my experience and my beliefs, you are entitled to your own.

If you believe that transwomen are women then how do you define ‘woman’? It’s a really simple question but no one can ever answer it.

Hermione
Those people really just want to “pee in peace” in the ladies loo?
That’s sheer provocation, nothing more.

But do you believe humans can change sex?

If you don’t, your expanded definition covers both sexes. We already have a word for that: People.

Why does your expanded definition cover both sexes? It’s incorrect biologically and it’s illogical.

Glitched, please can you answer my question?
Aside from innate gender identity, which I and the vast majority of other women don’t possess, what is it that I have in common with all other women and transwomen but not men?

So explain that picture, Breton?

If transwomen are women then I an XX adult are not.

I am arguing to expand the definition of women to include both AHF and transwomen.

So now give an actual definition, then - saying 'women = AHF and transwomen' is NOT a "definition". It's a claim and an unevidenced one at that.

breton

I’m sure all the transwomen you know are lovely. The transwomen I know are too.

Their demands for self ID will open up all spaces to be unisex.

That will harm women and children.

Their individual niceness doesn’t stop that.

hanging good point-why do trans women need to force themselves into womens spaces when everyone knows they are men-I can see they might well prefer not to get changed in front of men & share male only spaces-but they equally need to respect that many women do not want male bodied people in their intimate spaces either!
If we need trans WC's & changing rooms why aren't they campaigning for them? roughly 50% of the population are women, and we generally have the interests of children in our hearts as well-there is just no way women will roll over and allow men into our sex segregated spaces.

Homefromthehills - what a sensible person you are. I like your posts.

I’m sure all the transwomen you know are lovely. The transwomen I know are too.

It's the non-lovely ones that concern me - and the predatory men who will use self-id to further their nasty aims.

We live in a sexist society that disadvantages females and a prejudiced society that discriminates against transwomen, but those two experiences are not the same. To put those two separate groups under one umbrella definition will result in not getting good data about the people in those two separate groups in order to tackle those two problems.
Other problems will also arise, such as the definition of 'lesbian', young lesbians are likely to be confused and feel shame in being told they have a fetish for vaginas because they reject a penis. Or by not accepting transwomen as sexual partners is equal to being transphobic.
This is a very dangerous road to plough down.

I think ideas of defining and categorising are being used at cross purposes.

When categorising people by sex, the category fails to make any sense when including males in the category 'females' and females in the category 'males'. If sex is not significant to a given context, it makes sense not to use this form of categorisation.

The traditional definition of women allows the term 'woman' to be used to label those that fit in to the category 'female'. If the definition is changed to include transwomen, the definition can no longer be used interchangeably with the category 'female'.

Am a scientist. Not that that should make any difference but there has been no change whatsoever to any biology or medical textbooks.
Professionals are willing to be polite, but nothing has fundamentally changed. I use the term ‘female’ and ‘sex’ instead of gender. Just for total clarity.
Intersex conditions are completely separate matters and don’t have anything to do with transgenderism.

Ok. So those saying 'biology' this is covered by adult human female.

THat IS the definition of 'woman'. You can't then shunt a category oh humans into it that are NOT AHF.

Again - you are making a claim. It's like me saying the definition of 'goat' is goats + ducks.

Breton, I think your experience is maybe based on what used to be called transsexuals (who have hormones and surgery eventually in order to manage their gender dysphoria).

The Brave New World of being able to self-declare your sex means that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, with no clinical diagnosis of dysphoria and of course the majority of males opting to keep their penis.

That includes fully intact criminals who want to be moved to a women's prison. And of course, if they say they are a woman, then they are a woman. No debate. BBC link

A lot of transsexuals (who perhaps you've had most dealings with) have serious concerns about self-declaration of sex. Guardian link A few of the signatories of that letter have been on here discussing self-ID with us.

Vicky, that is an actual definition.

Currently woman = adult human female.
Potential expanded definitions is woman = adult human female and transwomen

They are women because like it or not there is an imperfect choice between male and female

There is no choice about being male or female (intersex excepted) it's a biological reality and has absolutely nothing to do with how one happens to feel about it. Not liking being a man doesn't make you a woman.

and they are not male and do not feel safe in male environments
Women can feel unsafe in male environments which is one reason why we have spaces segrigated by sex.

If men feel unsafe in male environments that's men's problem to solve not women's. I really resent having thinly veiled appeals made to my female socialisation to just be nicer and put everyone else's need above those of women and girls.

They do not define as male
So basically they are not men because they say so and they are women because they say they are?That's not how reality works.
To paraphrase thebewilderness men are whatever they say they are and women are whatever men say they are.