Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

[happydappy2]

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist? I don't understand how law can not be written in a way that recognises women as women and trans women as trans women.

Thus trans women are treated with respect and dignity, and so are women. This blurring of the lines is helping no one.

Who ever claimed that trans women are women? Unless we can differentiate between the 2 there will always be conflict. Is it too late for reality to kick in here?

MsBeau

That's correct. Thanks.

Yes there are pros and cons.

Every time you post I am heartened by the reminder of the honest transsexuals who identify with women rather than bully us, and with whom women can find common ground over the issue of Self-ID, Homefromthehills.

No -Trans women are not Cis women, true. But they are women.

I have to point out to you that you've breached Mumsnet's code of conduct by using the term 'cis'.

And then ask you - in what way are they "women"? In your opinion?

Nobody is denying that trans women are any of those things, or think they are inately reprehensible in any way, Breton.
We just don’t accept that they are actual women.

glitched do you believe humans can change sex?

That's the whole point of expanding the definition.

Rather than arguing that transwomen are exactly the same as adult human females, when they evidently aren't, we expand the definition of woman to include both adult human females and transwomen.

we expand the definition of woman to include both adult human females and transwomen.

You say "definition" but don't actually give one. You can't call 'women = adult human females and transwomen" a definition.

So - what's the definition of 'woman'?

But do you believe humans can change sex?

If the answer is no then your definition of women now includes the opposite sex as well. How can that be logically correct?

Woman is not an umbrella term for both sexes of human beings. Never has been.

In what way are male people (who identify as women) women? What makes them so? Name just one thing.

We'd all love to know.

@bowl

That's a complex question to answer.

With current medical technology, no. In the future. Maybe.

Depends how the question is defined.

Glitched, can I reframe the question?
What is it that I have in common with all women and transwomen, but not with men?
I do not have an internal sense of being a woman by the way, aside from the functions of my female body and the way society treats me because of that female body.

The question is defined as ‘can human beings change sex.?’

So you wish to expand the definition of woman to include both sexes. Why? I can’t see a rationale for that.

Well, that's a load of piffle, Bretonstripedcat.

I have worked with Trans people for years - none of the trans people I have met are rapists, stealing women's opportunities, utilising some latent male privilege to further the patriarchy or whatever other moral panic arguments are out there.

None of the men in my life are rapists, either. Still doesn't mean I want to share intimate space with them, or force other women and girls to do so.

Trans women want to use women's changing rooms/ toilets etc to be safe, to live as the gender they know they are, to feel at ease with their self and enjoy basic human rights.

Transwomen already have basic human rights. They have the right to access spaces set aside for their sex. Women only spaces are separated by sex not gender identity.

Transwomen are not women. They are, by definition, men who identify as women.

@Vicky

That is a valid definition.

How do you define woman then?

@bowl

How are you defining sex

Why do we have to expand the definition of women to include men who think they’re not men?
Why does that mean they must be women, instead of a third (I know species isn’t right but I can’t think of a better word just now, sorry)?
Isn’t that the whole purpose of trans being a definition in itself?

I didn't realise it was a banned term - that's a bit rubbish. I agree with the argument about biology and before I had worked with this group I may have agreed more with some of the comments here. They are women because like it or not there is an imperfect choice between male and female - and they are not male and do not feel safe in male environments. They do not define as male and much of the underlying source of the high rates of suicide are a rejection of maleness. I am not trans and live in the gender I was assigned at birth, nor am I trans activist. I'm not going to win here - it's an echo chamber - but felt I had to say something, because this feminism is not my feminism.

How do you define woman then?

Biology.

Okay, so today no human being can change sex. Fine.

What is a woman if a woman can be male or female?

How is a woman (who can be either male or female apparently) distinguished from a man? What specific things make her a woman?

Trans women want to use women's changing rooms/ toilets etc to be safe,

Break this argument down.

Safe from what?

Male violence?

Ok allowing any man into the toilets as would happen under self ID allows ANY MAN in.

So you’re scared of Male violence? Us too. But now you just opened our safe space to men. So now we are at risk.

How do you justify that? If your justification is that you’re less likely to be attacked in the women’s whoch is now unisex you are using women as human shields

So what’s the justification for allowing all the men you are scared of into the women’s space please?

It depends how the question is defined!!! The question was very very clear, Glitched, you just can’t answer it

Glitched
For that to work as a legal definition you would also need to have a definition for 'adult human female' and 'transwomen'. What are they?

Rather than arguing that transwomen are exactly the same as adult human females, when they evidently aren't, we expand the definition of woman to include both adult human females and transwomen.

Who expands the definition? And why can't the definition of man be expanded to include transwomen, given that transwomen are in fact men (because if they were men, and weren't transitioning from being men, then they wouldn't be 'transwomen' they would just be women).

How are you defining sex

The way science defines it.

A woman is an adult human female where female is the class which bears live young and produces ova.

There is no other definition of sex

You’re welcome to nip up to the Pennines and give different definitions of sex to a hill farmer. Or to a dairy farm. Be prepared for polite bafflement.