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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

421 replies

happydappy2 · 24/07/2018 13:18

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist? I don't understand how law can not be written in a way that recognises women as women and trans women as trans women.

Thus trans women are treated with respect and dignity, and so are women. This blurring of the lines is helping no one.

Who ever claimed that trans women are women? Unless we can differentiate between the 2 there will always be conflict. Is it too late for reality to kick in here?

OP posts:
Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 24/07/2018 23:49

^^
👏👏👏👏

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 25/07/2018 00:06

I've been thinking, Tryingtolisten2. About the word transsexual. Haven't come up with anything shattering though.

OK, I prefer transsexual to transwoman if it applies, firstly because it doesn't appropriate the word woman.

Secondly, it seems more accurate in that it directly refers to sex. Heavy duty gender dysphoria is a rejection of the sexed body. The sufferer doesn't want to change gender. He dreams of changing sex.

Thirdly - and this is purely emotional, not logical - transsexual has (for me) an honourable history, describing a tiny group very different from today's great surge of AGP and cross dressers of Stonewall's vast umbrella.

LinoleumBlownapart · 25/07/2018 00:50

LastTrainEast no problem! I did wonder why on earth you were telling me that Grin

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 25/07/2018 01:25

When Simone de Beauvoir talked about women as the "second sex", she was arguing that for patriarchal societies, male is the default category and that the category named "women" contained those things which the dominant category didn't want to acknowledge.

So the category of woman was the shadow of the category of man - the sexed version of the kitchen odds and sods drawer. Men shoved emotion and nurture and kindness and weakness as well as manipulation and vanity and slyness into the drawer labelled woman. Men kept for themselves courage and heroism and loyalty and activity and strength.

This of course, had nothing to do with the real category of women, except that the process of gender creation will create identity in the direction of cultural expectations. It doesn't mean that women (and men) didn't chafe against those expectations and managed to express their real selves irrespective of gender expectations. No-one likes being shut in a drawer (or closet).

This goes to the heart of the problem of gender dysphoria, because if people reject their gender acculturation, they can really only conclude that they must be the "other". Not because they are, but because there's no other category available. Cartesian dualism has the advantage of clarity but lacks nuance where the mind and spirit are involved.

If my female gender and sexed body don't fit my inner self, then without an acceptable additional category, I can only conclude I must be a man. I am not, I cannot be, but if I am not woman, I must be man and vice versa.

The social answer must surely be not to create a fantasy of biological impossibility, but to deconstruct the gender categories to include all the different ways in which humans express their physical and psychological selves.

Transsexual people have always existed, they are not new. What is new is this intersection of ever-narrowing gender categories, increased social anxiety and political constructs which actively encourage aggression and misogyny.

Instead of insisting on linguistic and category fictions such was TWAW, we should be asking ourselves how we expand the gender expectations of the sexed categories male and female.

I've devoted a lot of thinking to how it feels to be a woman and other than experiencing a female body and the associated oppressions which accrue to my sex, I really have no idea. I know I am treated like a woman, but since I've never experienced anything else, I'm like a fish in water, I can't imagine another existence. And all women experience these things differently, our only commonality is our female flesh.

I spent yesterday in boots, pants and an oversize jumper, carting hay and stamping around in mud. I haven't worn makeup in years, painted my finger nails in decades. The closest I came to a "womanly" thought was debating if I could be bothered to put in a bra before I went to the supermarket. My femaleness is not defined by accoutrement, woman is not a costume.

Whatevszz · 25/07/2018 05:31

Sex - there are 2 sexes plus intersex as a medical condition.
Gender - is a social construct, mainly made up of stereotypes about how the sexes 'should' behave/look.

Glitches proposal is that the legal and practical definition of

woman = adult female by sex + adult makes by sex (if conforming
/reinforcing unhelpful to stereotypes of feminity And also if they just happen to 'feel' their sex and/or gender is more "feminine" that particular day)

Totally workable and logical (NOT).

Whatevszz · 25/07/2018 05:33

Brilliant post dance

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 25/07/2018 05:36

Yes it is, Dance.

SarahCarer · 25/07/2018 07:35

Great post dance

Tryingtolisten2 · 25/07/2018 07:38

Thank you @DancelikeEmmaGoldman and @Prawnofthepatriarchy

I really appreciate your responses and thoughts from your point of view.

Off to work now.

MsBeaujangles · 25/07/2018 07:46

snappity
They aren't men claiming to be women : they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here. Calling them men is offensive andtransphobic - and transphobia is against Talk Guidelines

Being male or female isn't determined by cognition/ 'knowing' but by chromosomes. The term woman refers to being female.

I am female and adult, and therefore a woman. Whether or not I feel female, think I'm female, 'know' I'm female has no bearing on me being female/ a woman. I belong to the class of humans that serves 1 of 2 reproductive roles that enable the species to survive.

Having said that, I am also aware that some people are distressed by their sex and that using labels that link them to their sex is distressing. Therefore, we should avoid using these labels in day to day interaction and find ones that do not cause distress to them.

I do fear that for some, the only labels that are deemed acceptable are ones that conflate gender identity and sex as the goal is to find a label that allows a transperson to be classified as being of the opposite sex. After all, person/people/ human work fine both sexes (including people with intersex conditions) and all gender identities. Asking people not to refer to a person's sex at all seems entirely reasonable in all but those contexts where sex is a significant. In those contexts where sex is significant, lying or being misleading about a person's sex can only be a bad thing!

FruitOnAPlatter · 25/07/2018 08:35

they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here

If 'knowing' made something true, then there would be a lot fewer women and girls with unwanted babies, because they 'knew' you can't get pregnant standing up, or your first time.

No matter how desperately you want something to be true, no matter how much you believe something with every fibre of your being, if it's not true, then it isn't true. There's no such thing as a genie to grant your wish, no matter how sincere you are.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/07/2018 08:41

they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here

Can humans change sex?

Wrathofjurgenklop · 25/07/2018 09:19

Can humans change sex?
Simple question.

Anyone who says humans can change sex is a liar.

Popchyk · 25/07/2018 09:35

Great post, Dance.

"Men shoved emotion and nurture and kindness and weakness as well as manipulation and vanity and slyness into the drawer labelled woman. Men kept for themselves courage and heroism and loyalty and activity and strength. "

This is what we are seeing yet again in the new transgender movement. Women who object are dismissed as unkind and men who identify as women retaining male attributes and casting themselves as the courageous and heroic ones.

History repeating itself.

Wrathofjurgenklop · 25/07/2018 10:00

Many human males in all civilisations are simply jealous of what women are and what their bodies can do.

There Is no such thing as penis envy except in the mind of the man who defined it.
Throughout human history, female babies are kidnapped, male babies are killed. Jealousy reigns supreme in the male mind.

bd67th · 25/07/2018 12:25

@tryingtolisten2 There's recent evidence that in gender dysphoric people there are extra connections between the part of the brain that governs proprioception (your sense of where your body is in space) and the part of the brain that governs self-worth. Your brain is apparently otherwise structurally as expected for your sex as observed at birth and sexual orientation relative to your sex as observed at birth.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 25/07/2018 12:27

How does it compare to the brain of the opposite sex?

BettyDuMonde · 25/07/2018 12:30

Bd67th - that’s really interesting, especially in regards to sensory processing disorders (including proprioception) being common in ASD people.

Further research here please, universe!

haXXor · 25/07/2018 12:45

@delurkingherkin I've not yet seen one good argument as to why the logic of GC feminists couldn't be applied to racial arguments (hypothetically speaking of course)

You don't rape someone with your skin colour, you rape them with your dick. Having a particular skin colour doesn't make you physically more vulnerable to rape, having an additional orifice and being physically smaller and weaker does. Your skin colour doesn't determine whether you can get pregnant, your biological sex does.

Nigh-on every male has a rape weapon fitted to his body as standard: his penis. Nigh-on every female has an unpatchable security vulnerability fitted fo her body as standard: her vagina. We segregate by sex under some circumstances to protect the people with the unpatchable security vulnerability built into their bodies from the other people who have a rape weapon built into their bodies. There is no difference of race or culture that is remotely comparable to these differences of sexual biology.

haXXor · 25/07/2018 12:56

What we have here with Gherkin is a clear example of a MRA using trans rights as a stalking horse to attack women's spaces and other safeguarding measures.

6% of men are rapists, according to Lisak and Miller's study of undetected (e.g. unreported to the police) rapists. In a unisex multi-cubicle toilet, there's a one in twenty chance that the man following me in is a rapist. This is why we need women-only spaces.

happydappy2 · 25/07/2018 13:00

hhxxor well said.
Gherkins talkin out of his arse.

OP posts:
Noqont · 25/07/2018 13:19

They aren't men claiming to be women : they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here.

They know they're not women. We know they're not women. Stop perpetuating this lie.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/07/2018 16:32

They aren't men claiming to be women : they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here.

So why are there mature transsexuals (transitioned, GRC) who tell us that they know they are not women? Some are reconciled to being male. Some may prefer 'transwoman' or 'transsexual'. But - even though it may pain them - they know they aren't women the same as all the other women here. Their position is rational and worthy of respect.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 25/07/2018 17:43

Hear hear

BreakingDad77 · 25/07/2018 18:40

I'm struggling to get my head around *girl dick = vagina... Or else!"