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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
averylongtimeasspartacus · 24/07/2018 08:39

To those saying well they are only young and they wouldn't mind their 6 year old sharing.
Two recent events in the groups I am involved with.
Rangers, who can be 14-18 but in this case were 15-18. A weekend indoor holiday in a guide owned converted house. There are two multi bedded dorms for girls, and one leaders roomwhich sleeps up to 5 adults. There are no other small rooms which could be used for more privacy, short of sleeping in the corner of the main hall.
The Rangers arrived discussing this issue, they were adamant that while they had sympathy for trans people, they would not feel happy sleeping and undressing in front of one. Likewise for the leaders, I don't mind sharing with other women, but I don't want to sleep in the same room as a male bodied person, no matter how nice or friendly they are. I loved my fil dearly but I wouldn't want to undress in front of him!
Toilets and showers- there are adults ones and girls ones, no choice, no provision for extra privacy.
In the event of a trans gender member, we would not use this venue and it would be impossible to take girls away and , in my mind, follow proper safeguarding.

Next- a big international camp this summer for guides (10-14). Here it is the showers which would be a particular issue: they are in the main building and are part of the sports complex. They are of the big open room with lots of nozzles type - no curtains or cubicles. The organisers say they know it's not ideal and suggest girls take swimming costumes. Which is fine, if they are all girls...
Incidentally, male children accompanying their parents have to sleep in a separate area and have separate facilities. One leader joked that if her son was 8 (he's 5) she would identify him as a girl for the week.,,,

Sorry, that was long but is the situation on the ground. There are a few outspoken leaders in favour of all this "inclusivity" but most either don't know or are keeping their heads down. Any dissent is slapped down and silenced.

boatyardblues · 24/07/2018 08:47

Any dissent is slapped down and silenced.

Extremely troubling in any organisation working with young people and children. 😕

Bowlofbabelfish · 24/07/2018 08:54

There is an issue with small children sharing and it is to do with boundaries.

Children need to be taught from a young age that they have boundaries and the right to say no. That they have autonomy over their bodies. That they can flag things they’re uncomfortable with.

The NSPCC ‘pants’ campaign is an excellent example.

By eroding girl’s boundaries like this you undo all that good work on safeguarding. You’re teaching them that their ‘no’ is irrelevant.

So whether a six year old is so young as not to be a threat isn’t the point. The point is that all those girls now see they don’t really have a right to safe single sex space, and that their boundaries are meaningless.

BesmirchingMotherhood · 24/07/2018 08:59

I think that the leaders could be self-ided is shocking. Presumably you’d know if your own pack leader was trans, but our pack often goes away with 10+ other packs. I’m trusting those leaders too, as well as the ones I see every week. And I’m trusting the organisation.

Maybe I need to not (but then DD misses out).

LangCleg · 24/07/2018 09:04

Children need to be taught from a young age that they have boundaries and the right to say no. That they have autonomy over their bodies. That they can flag things they’re uncomfortable with.

Absolutely. Coincidentally, I'm in another conversation on another website where a mum is asking other mums for advice on how to teach her children to trust their instincts. Nothing to do with Guides. But every single piece of good advice she has been given would be undermined and diluted by the current Girl Guiding policies. This is absolutely unacceptable.

averylongtimeasspartacus · 24/07/2018 09:04

At the moment leaders need a GRC to be considered as "women" in guiding- but children are welcome if they "identify" as girls.
If they don't, say they identify as non binary or as a trans boy then we are supposed to manage them out.

Wanderabout · 24/07/2018 09:16

At the moment leaders need a GRC to be considered as "women" in guiding- but children are welcome if they "identify" as girls.

I thought they could Self-ID? Is there a specific policy on this and if so how is it communicated? How is it even checked?

Datun · 24/07/2018 09:23

I thought they could Self-ID? Is there a specific policy on this and if so how is it communicated? How is it even checked?

I'd like to know the answer to that. Do they ask for proof? Do they ask to see the birth certificate?

BesmirchingMotherhood · 24/07/2018 09:29

At the moment leaders need a GRC to be considered as "women" in guiding
If that’s true (and I hope it is) it’s a good argument against moving to self-Id as a route to GRC.

BesmirchingMotherhood · 24/07/2018 09:33

Sadly, it’s not true.

‘If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding and may, if they wish, make their Promise.
If an adult self-identifies as not being a woman then they are able to take volunteer roles that do not require them to complete a Leadership Qualification or to make their Promise. This includes the role of Unit Helper and support roles such as Adviser or Coordinator.’

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

averylongtimeasspartacus · 24/07/2018 09:39

Right, it's worse than I thought- that little gem had slipped past me.

Datun · 24/07/2018 09:47

If an adult self-identifies as not being a woman

Does it actually say not being a woman???

Can they not bring themselves to say identifies as a man?

You could identify as a frog which is 'not being a woman' ffs.

Everything in the universe, other than a woman, is not being a woman.

It's all absolute wank.

Wanderabout · 24/07/2018 10:02

Are their any male born guide leaders with a GRC or who have self-ID'd as a woman?

Do GG have any way of knowing?

How would anyone external to guides find out or even know if they knew or not?

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 24/07/2018 10:06

Well, you’re not allowed to ask, are you? That’s the true horror of it.
I would assume the self ID thing means they don’t say they “identify as a woman”, they simply declare they are a woman.
And it’s a potential hate crime to even raise the question should you have one....
How in the name of all that’s holy did we get here?

LaSquirrel · 24/07/2018 10:21

I noticed that Girl Guiding UK’s Equality and Diversity policy hmm omits biological sex from the list of characterisrics that are protected under the policy.

Woah Chatty! What a startling omission! GG have seemingly lost the plot.

the EHRC, who support the current GG policy on the basis that membership criteria can cover 2 protected characteristics - sex and gender reassignment. I'm not sure where that leaves female children with the PC of gender reassignment.

That would be, Agnes, sadly under-the-busville. In this crazy woke world, 'gender' (identity) trumps born sex of female.

AgnesBadenPowell · 24/07/2018 13:53

No one would know if there's a leader with GRC. The law is clear - it would be illegal in some circumstances and unethical in all to "out" any individual, whether they are an adult or child. The right to privacy and dignity includes everyone.

My concern is that by not making it abundantly clear that GG is a mixed sex / single gender organisation, parents and children will unwittingly find themselves in situations they would not have consented to.

Very few parents will go through the policy on the website in detail - most will assume it's a female only space. In my view, every consent form for a residential trip should have a standard statement - "GG is a mixed sex / single gender organisation and we don't guarantee single sex accommodation" or words to that effect. No child can go on a trip without this form - every parent will know and can make an informed choice.

The scouts policy includes a statement that that everyone should be comfortable with the arrangements. That's all I'm asking for. Funny how I haven't seen anyone suggest that Scouts should be referred to the police or social services. Women - know your place.

OP posts:
writingbymoonlight · 24/07/2018 14:49

I’m de-lurking to let you know I was one of those who contacted GG after seeing the Sunday Times letter - I also found FWR as a result!

My email ended up with the complaints team and I had an interesting exchange where it was acknowledged that ‘it is a safeguarding issue’ but I was not to worry because ‘trans girls are not exactly the same as cis boys’. Also, any fears regarding unwanted preganancy were unfounded as GG prohibits any sexual activity on residentials Hmm

What struck me though was that the person responding was reasonably sympathetic and giving stock answers without any conviction or genuine understanding. I think I pushed too far as my final response was from a ‘supervisor’ who had the party line down pat.

Agnes, let me know if you need support - I’m a parent of a brownie and an ex leader and would be happy to lend you my voice if required.

AncientLights · 24/07/2018 15:03

'Trans girls are not exactly the same as cis boys.' I wonder if GGUK would care to explain that. Maybe they think they're all gay. My parents forbade sexual activity too: didn't make one iota of difference to me. What planet are they on?

OlennasWimple · 24/07/2018 15:04

Welcome to FWR writing!

Were GG able to articulate how a "trans girl" is different to a "cis boy"? Hmm

And how marvellous that they have managed to find an effective method to end teenage pregnancy, by simply telling teens that they cannot have sex!

Melamin · 24/07/2018 15:23

And how marvellous that they have managed to find an effective method to end teenage pregnancy, by simply telling teens that they cannot have sex! That used to work well in the 1950s Hmm (My in-laws told me that the church dances and waltzing were the closest they ever managed to get physically, so maybe it wasn't the only thing)

ludicrousmode · 24/07/2018 15:25

The other potential problem with mixed sex sleeping arrangements is not only sexual assault but false accusations of sexual assault l. Perhaps the question to present to GGHQ is 'how do we protect male-bodied trans women from false accusations of assault?' - maybe that'd be deemed worthy of some consideration?

Melamin · 24/07/2018 15:50

I have been reading about the ROGD week on Transgender Trend where a therapist describes the girls' problems and social isolation and how they want to be part of a group. They don't conform. They are lonely. Isn't this what Guiding is supposed to help withSad

LangCleg · 24/07/2018 15:51

**

All the LOLs!

LangCleg · 24/07/2018 15:52

And how marvellous that they have managed to find an effective method to end teenage pregnancy, by simply telling teens that they cannot have sex!

Stephen Whittle came on here a few months ago and had the most marvellous solution to this! He said that Leaders should be issued with a supply of condoms.

(I kid you not.)

Lancelottie · 24/07/2018 16:00

How would the leaders know which 'girls' needed the condoms?