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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 23/07/2018 01:25

Agreed Boatyard

GG UK have a planned change of Chief Executive. This gives the Trustees an ideal opportunity to review this policy. They can also as part of that, openly debate the policy in the organisation which didn’t happen before this policy was put in.

GG UK could decide to return to working within their legal charitable objects as registered with the Charity Commission (which are to benefit ‘girls and women’- not to benefit boys and men.. ).

GGUK could decide not to let in boys and they could decide not to kick out (I mean, WTAF?!) girls who are gender identity non-conforming.

Agnes, I have such respect for what you are doing as a whistleblower. Because currently this charity is literally placing the performance of femininity as more important than the appropriate safeguarding of the children in their care. Appalling.

It’s like Wilberforce said: ‘Having heard all of this you may choose to look the other way but you can never again say you did not know.’

BesmirchingMotherhood · 23/07/2018 01:29

💐 Agnes

My DD came home from Brownies recently with a ‘Future Girl’ badge.

Only a serious incident of real harm will cause a rethink of the policy
I think what’s far more likely is that leaders who by and large haven’t drunk the kool-aid but who are afraid to create a fuss will just quietly do less activities where it matters, and all the girls will miss out.

ijustwannadance · 23/07/2018 01:49

The bar for single sex exemptions is set impossibly high and no one wants to challenge it

Yep, so the whole "but the EA isn't changing now so you can still segregate by sex" becomes completely pointless.

Melamin · 23/07/2018 07:48

I think that if the bar is set too high for the GG to exist as a single sex organisation, then it is set too high for everyone.

Wanderabout · 23/07/2018 07:54

So safeguarding goes out the window. Consent is not only not given, it's not even sought.

Yes and on top of that people raising safeguarding concerns or concerns about consent issues are actively silenced.

Dragoncake · 23/07/2018 07:56

Flowers Agnes your threads on this are chilling. Thank you so much for standing up for safeguarding. You clearly love guiding and are so obviously motivated by doing the best for the girls in your care. I'm deeply shocked that you are under investigation.

grasspigeons · 23/07/2018 08:02

I've been asked to take over a brownie units that's about to fold (I'm on a brown owl break at the mo) ironically it has a male unit helper who is willing and able to run the unit but can't because he is a male identifying male. He could identify as female and run the unit and drop all those irritating safeguarding measures that have him sleeping in another room but obviously he won't. I feel on reading this thread that I can't go back to guiding and will be feeding back exactly why.

Badgerthebodger · 23/07/2018 08:13

Oh Agnes I’m so sorry to hear you are under investigation. It’s outrageous! I feel absolutely disgusted with GG HQ over this, they seem to be actively working against the interests of the women and girls who they are supposed to look after.

Thank you from me, a former guide. You are an amazingly brave and strong woman, even if you don’t think you are. If any of your Rainbows turn out to be anything like you I would say you’ve done a bloody good job Flowers

I hope you can try and keep well through it all. Let us know if there is any support we can give, in any form.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 23/07/2018 08:21

Flowers agnes

You are actually making Girlguiding look good. Your principled stance, clear dedication to safeguarding and your acknowledgement of the trust parents put in you is exemplary.

They should be very proud to have you.

Parents would much rather have you as a leader than cowardly, gullible accommodating ones who may put children at risk by being overly 'nice' to males who seek validation by crossing women and girls boundaries.

Thank you. Hold your head high! They need to learn from you. They need to take your lead. Deep down they know that so don't be shy of owning it and composing in your head the most persuasive lecture you could give on their duty of care and safeguarding! Use this as an opportunity to send shivers down their spines with your conviction. You can do it!

I see you doing a TED talk on safeguarding in the modern age!

sashh · 23/07/2018 08:32

I'm currently to ill to teach but when I am one of my favorite units to teach is 'equality and diversity'.

Some times the rights of one person or group clash with another person or group. In that case the balance is what is best for society in general and the harm caused by one person or group, this applies to potential harm.

So if you have a disease/illness that puts people at risk you will be quarantined, this infringes on your personal liberty but is done for the benefit of other people.

In most countries there are laws to enforce this.

The principle applies from leprosy to typhoid to ebola.

The same should apply to safeguarding.

It is irrelevant whether someone 'identifies' as male or female a penis can be used to rape, it can also be used in indecent exposure, or more commonly termed 'flashing'.

Having a female identified person in possession of a penis sharing space to sleep with women and girls puts the women and girls at risk but it also puts the female identified person at risk of a conviction for indecent exposure.

Agnes is there anything we can do? Can we write letters in support or other actions?

Cascade220 · 23/07/2018 08:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Wanderabout · 23/07/2018 08:45

Is there some way of challenging the policies in terms of guides acting in loco parentis?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis

Parents are trusting guides but don't even mostly know about these policies.

Every single person I've told has been gobsmacked by the privacy and safeguarding implications - and the secrecy.

Bowlofbabelfish · 23/07/2018 08:52

agnes you are an absolute trooper. Holding fast to safeguarding despite such pressure. They are lucky to have you.

I also fear it will take a serious incident to even bring this to light. The thought is chilling. The safety of women and girls just means nothing does it? I’m so angry.

NoSquirrels · 23/07/2018 08:56

I agree wholeheartedly with WhereDoWeBegin

Agnes, you are completely right in all you do. People will say when it’s “just” Rainbows it doesn’t matter, because they’re so young. And as a parent I’d feel OK with a mixed sleepover at that age if I considered it to be just the children involved. BUT

Leadership roles in Girlguiding are now open to anyone who identifies as a woman. So a person born male, with their male body still intact, could have been sleeping in that same hall next to me and the rainbows.

It is a clear and absolute safeguarding issue.

I’ve spent a week recently in close quarters with girls of all ages in various states of undress (don’t ask!)
There is NO WAY they should be expected to share that experience with a male-bodied person. It would have caused massive issues and the child/teen who identified as female couldn’t just be accommodated “like everyone else” precisely because they are not like everyone else and no amount of not wanting to hurt their feelings could change that. Those girls were completely entitled to as much privacy and dignity as possible and it would have been unthinkable to ask them to put up with feelings of discomfort and worry to avoid hurting another person’s feelings.

The ‘third space’ option for children and teens exploring their gender exists already in Scouting, which is mixed.

I think a problem you’re fighting against is that there’s a public misconception about what GG stands for. The general public sees it as the opposite of what it is - the more conservative option for girls, opposed to the gender-neutral Scouts. They don’t see that at its heart it is (or should be) a strong feminist organisation committed to helping girls break free of social gender constraints.

I am saddened to hear that the TRAs won’t debate the GG situation in the media. You know why- because they know people will react strongly to safeguarding issues around children and teens in a way they won’t for themselves as adults. And the TRAs know that too.

I think you’re extremely courageous and you’ve personally helped to clarify my thinking on this.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 23/07/2018 08:59

The problem in all of this, the changes that the GC leaders will make to secure their girls' safety - means that the girls will yet again miss out.

It is tragic. Agnes you are amazing Flowers.

SingeBuggerCack · 23/07/2018 09:08

Flowers for you, Agnes, and thank you for speaking out. It’s disgraceful that Girl Guides refuses to engage, it smacks of deliberately trying to keep this as quiet as possible. They know full well how the general public will see this.

Have you considered TalkRadio and Julia Hartley-Brewer? She’s spoken about the GG issue before

happydappy2 · 23/07/2018 09:38

Agnes, I 100% share your concerns-recently wrote to GG to check their stance on safeguarding issues re mixed sleeping arrangements & not informing parents & was rebuked, I pointed out the potential for a child to be molested whilst in their care which would be tragic for GG but they replied that they would not respond to any further correspondence from me....this is a disaster waiting to happen, to think we have a female prime minister allowing this to happen on her watch is disgusting. I can’t fathom how they allow grown men who identify as women, access to young girls, but if a girl is confused & identifies as a boy, they are forced to leave GG.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 23/07/2018 09:56

Leadership roles in Girlguiding are now open to anyone who identifies as a woman. So a person born male, with their male body still intact, could have been sleeping in that same hall next to me and the rainbows.

Presumably the GG policy actually means that all the adults supervising a sleepover could be males.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 23/07/2018 09:57

And Agnes, I'm so sorry all this is happening to you; it must be incredibly stressful. Your commitment to Guiding is so obvious in every post you write, and this is all so horrible for you to go through.

Wanderabout · 23/07/2018 10:12

I pointed out the potential for a child to be molested whilst in their care which would be tragic for GG but they replied that they would not respond to any further correspondence from me...

Shock
Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 23/07/2018 10:14

Declaring they would not respond to further correspondence is absolutely gobsmacking 😲
How can we publicist this??
Anybody got any media contacts?

MelanieSmooter · 23/07/2018 10:15

Gosh I wonder how beavers/cubs, being to both sexes, could possibly manage. Hmm

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 23/07/2018 10:20

Gosh I wonder how beavers/cubs, being to both sexes, could possibly manage.

Presumably the parents know this AND the sleeping arrangements are separate like the scouts?

This is the very point being made: pretending this is a single sex organisation but gender non-conforming girls being kicked out, whilst gender non-nonconforming boys being welcomed in and no parents being informed, is the issue.

PositivelyPERF · 23/07/2018 10:23

Gosh I wonder how beavers/cubs, being to both sexes, could possibly manage

They take appropriate safe guarding actions, keep the boys and girls separated on sleep overs and the children use the toilets/showers in relation to their SEX.

GGs are willing to ignore safeguarding females in order to placate the TRAs who are demanding that men/boys that pretend they are the opposite ‘gender’ share female spaces, putting women and girls at risk. Is that clear enough for you? Hmm

Bowlofbabelfish · 23/07/2018 10:27

Gosh I wonder how beavers/cubs, being to both sexes, could possibly manage

By acknowledging they’re mixed sex and acting accordingly.

They are mixed sex, they acknowledge this in their safeguarding guidelines and act accordingly. that is not happening in GG - can’t you see that’s worrying?