The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

[IJustHadToNameChange]

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

Stats for arguing with waiverers.

Can I please just repeat my posts as I feel they've become lost amongst all the truly great posts on here. I hope that's ok? I would like a response from your, etc, if that's possible.

Feelings don't (& shouldn't) come into it when you're accessing sex segregated spaces, what matters is the biological sexed body of the person using those spaces, and that should match those of all the other users of that space.

Your feelz are irrelevant, reality is what counts, and you are male, as is anyone who has ever possessed a penis, and are therefore not welcome in female only spaces.

HTH.

And actually, the clue is in the name:

That's why they're called sex segregated spaces and NOT feelings segregated spaces.

I apologise if that's not the done thing though!

What's funny is how easy it is to tell which group a particular trans person falls into just from a few comments.

I've said it before but will say it again - AGP actively impedes a male person's ability to empathize with women, in that being forced to acknowledge differences in perspective between women and the individual with AGP reminds that person that they are male, which prompts them to reject and deny women's perspectives and experiences. The less honest and self-aware the person is about being AGP the more of a problem this becomes.

Newbie
"Women don't rape but it doesn't matter if we disagree on the legal definition, because if a woman commits an offence that you would call rape, she will still be convicted of a sex offense and rightly so."

It absolutely does matter when instead of calling it rape we say things like "she forced him to have sex!" it entirely cheapens the reality of the situation purely because a woman is committing the crime and a man is suffering.

But as long as we're both clear here - when I say rape, I mean the common definition which does include women as rapists, I do not agree with the legal definition.

"What you're ignoring is that this scenario is very, very rare. Conversely, 2 women a week in the UK are killed by male partners. Almost all women have an experience of rape, assault or harrassment. Why are you trying to equate male and female crime?"

Is it? CDC numbers in the USA show that "forced envelopment" happens almost as much as women are raped by men. The only difference here is one is legally considered rape and so taken more seriously than the other.

What people are forgetting here is that it takes around two years to be seen by a GIC and then at least another year maybe two for refers for surgery and then again at least a year. So would love to know how fair play 4 women take that into account. Its just fearmonging

We’ll never be able to analyse crime data accurately while classifying TW as W and TM as M.

An MRA in lippy is still an MRA.

thatjourno that’s just within the NHS though. These days there are other options for both hormone prescriptions and surgery.

Is it? CDC numbers in the USA show that "forced envelopment" happens almost as much as women are raped by men.

I have no idea what CDC numbers are. Can you point to the relevant citation here in the UK. Since its UK law we are concerned with.

Thatjourno, the OP contains a link which I've helpfully provided. May I suggest you actually read that link before telling the FWR board that women are fear mongering when we object to men and their penises in women only spaces? Because women know that the most basic protection for us when we are naked or otherwise vulnerable is to exclude males, however they identify.

Fear mongering is two words, incidentally, which you'd know if you were in fact a professional journalist.

What's funny is how easy it is to tell which group a particular trans person falls into just from a few comments.

AngryAttackKittens
I have been wondering if at some point there might be a language / linguistic study done based on posts with regards sex and gender.

Way back when I did my degree, the gendered differences of language usage and communication were well established. There's a huge body of research and analysis into this.

“CDC numbers in the USA show that "forced envelopment" happens almost as much as women are raped by men. The only difference here is one is legally considered rape and so taken more seriously than the other.”

Could you link to the figures- and also similar figures for the UK?

So would love to know how fair play 4 women take that into account. Its just fearmonging

Why does anyone have to take the reasons into account?

Men who identify as women are campaigning for access to vulnerable women and girls. In terms of risk assessment, they are no different to any other man.

It's not fear mongering. Male violence is not fear mongering. Minimising male violence means you are part of the problem.

You not understanding, or not caring about this, makes you part of the problem.

“CDC numbers in the USA show that "forced envelopment" happens almost as much as women are raped by men. The only difference here is one is legally considered rape and so taken more seriously than the other.”

Is anyone else having the most bizarre mental image of a man nervously looking at a woman who is staring at him with narrowed eyes, in a confined space, and him experiencing the instant fight or flight reaction that so many men experience with fear of forced envelopment?

This is just evidence of what we know. That the GRA was created for and refers to Transsexuals throughout. Not transgender. That doctors advised parliament in 2004 when the law was passed it would apply to about 5000 people and it has almost exactly 14 years later.

Yup, it really annoys me how the fact that the umbrella has widened significantly is used as some kind of..gotcha. Like, stonewall and various other organisations drew cross dressers and such up under the trans label. A ridiculous decision, but seemingly one that can't be gone back on. BUT, this silly decision does not change the fact that crossdressers were never meant to be covered by the GRA anyway. It was always about transsexuals. And it should still be about transsexuals, regardless of how many crossdressers/MRAs stamp their feet in disgust about not getting their own way. The GRC is working exactly as it was always intended to. The fact that the umbrella is so wide it covers near all people on earth in some way, is neither here nor there. The GRC is STILL supposed to help transsexual people, who are very very rare.

Is it? CDC numbers in the USA show that "forced envelopment" happens almost as much as women are raped by men. The only difference here is one is legally considered rape and so taken more seriously than the other

Is that almost as much as men who are convicted - bearing in mind only 6 in 1000 rapes ever get to a trial.

You cannot be seriously saying women force men to have sex nearly as much as men force women? I mean I've heard some fucking bullshit in my time but this really takes the piss out of the countless women and girls raped by men by men across the globe.

No more proof needed that you ain't never gonna be a lady mate. Never.

Stop talking shit yourfriendly
Links to those cdc 'envelopment' numbers or fuck. off.
Again, if you're trying to join with women and pass as a woman, mansplaining rape apologist isn't the most convincing persona, k?

Yep. Those are exactly the people who gatekeeping was meant to exclude, and for excellent reasons.

Is it? CDC numbers in the USA show that "forced envelopment" happens almost as much as women are raped by men. The only difference here is one is legally considered rape and so taken more seriously than the other.

Data please.

Newbie:
"Also I didn't yell, I pointed out that you are making a mistake by telling a load of women, many of whom will have experienced violence, abuse or oppression by men, that they shouldn't worry about men. That is mansplaining, because you are seeing things from a viewpoint we don't share. We have never had the privilege of living free from fear."

No, I'm a woman and a victim of rape and sexual assault too. I don't have hte privilege of living free from fear either - but its important that we realise the fear we have isn't entirely rational. Fear never usually is.

and I didn't say don't take precautions and protect yourself etc. But to automatically treat anyone with a dongle with prejudice? Yeah. I think that's wrong. I wouldn't tolerate it for any other group of people; why should I tolerate it for men?

DanceLikeEmma
"I don't think it's even necessary to explain why, yet again. It should be enough that women say, "we are women and we need these few spaces"."

You'd think so, yet when I say that I get shouted at to stay out of women's spaces...

Bewilderness
"For some strange reason Char only threatened to rape and kill women. Nor do misogynists like Char direct their hate filled pejoratives at men, for what ought to be obvious reasons even for one as committed to willful ignorance as you are, friendly."

Usually? Its because men aren't organising against our rights and acceptance in society. A small group of women are, and acting like their idea of womanhood is the only justification they need for that.

I think its a massive stretch to call her misogynist for deliberately provocative posts.

Empress
Yeah I also don't like the whole transgender umbrella thing. I prefer to call myself transsexual.

Though I disagree that Travis should be counted here, they asked for gender neutral spaces - not to "invade women's rooms". Its just that we live in a society which doesn't seem to have any other options except man/woman.

Prawn
Race comparisons make sense because we're talking about prejudice and civil rights. Both of which we've already done with race a whole bunch and saw the negative outcomes of that.

and 0.2% or less commit those 98% of violent crimes. So the prejudice is absolutely misplaced.

Sex is a binary in your opinion - but that isn't the opinion of other people. Many people view it as a spectrum. Neither lens to view sex through is wrong, they both have their uses in different situations.

What people here seem to think sex means is complete bull hooky.

and fists are a more common weapon than penises - should we ban everyone who can make a fist too?

George
The difference between Dolezal and trans people is like... decades of research which proves we're not just making this crap up. Including genetics and neurology, ie things we have no way of faking.

So I think your comparison here is extremely disingenuous.

Lurker33
I think its grounds for better spaces - but the idea that spaces must be segregated along the lines of sex? That isn't really supported by the data. Instead I think the best way forwards is secure gender neutral facilities. Ones with floor to ceiling doors and walls, with a CCTV camera watching the door to see who enters and leaves and perhaps even a panic button (like a fire alarm) as is the case with some of these spaces already.

Bowl
If char had actually attacked someone? I wouldn't support her. but posing with baseball bat and an offensive tattoo doesnt equal violent and dangerous. Again, I've explained the rationale behind the photograph - I disagree with her methods, but the idea behind why she did that makes sense and I struggle to see her as a bad person for a few edgy posts.

We often see what we want to see in things, and I think you're wrong for the way you view her.

Curious
"I'll ask you again - why are you doing that?"

I don't think I am? I'm genuinely trying to respond to everyone. Except there's one of me and many of you - its understandable that I can get a lil snowed in and miss things. There's like 5 or so pages since I went to sleep last night. Do you really expect me to read and respond to every single one of them?

I'm trying my best. I'm sorry if it isn't good enough for you.

"What is it about women that makes you feel that you can mold an online discussion to the shape you prefer?"

This is an incredibly loaded question. I would approach any discussion with people in the same way I'm doing here. By trying to directly address the things they say - regardless of who they are as a person.

The fact you are women has literally nothing to do with my responses.

Furthermore, I'm not molding anything. I'm just having a conversation. Discussing points and ideas with people. You have just as much power to steer the conversation as I do.

"What is it about the lack of compliance that makes you come back with further demands of "don't respond unless you say what I want you to say"?"

I'm pretty sure I didn't say this. What I did say is that shouting "MANSPLAINING" every time I say something you don't like isn't very conducive to a good discussion. Whether you believe I'm a man or not is irrelevant to the things I'm saying - please discuss the points I make directly! :)

"You have a sense of security in your opinions, your ability to have them heard that no woman ever has."

She says... while expressing her opinions with security...

This entire forum is about women discussing things - so yeah. I feel pretty secure discussing things here as a woman. Like how you do too. Why is it a big deal for me to have confidence in my opinions here, but not you?

"And if you are feeling a bit beleaguered, at a loss to make the posters here understand you, listen to you properly then hey! You may well have had a 'feminine' experience, possibly your first true inkling of how women live every day of their lives!!"

This is a ridiculous assumption. You know nothing of my personal life or anything like that. You've just got an idea about me and regardless of whether that's actually true or not you're treating me like shit for it. Please don't talk to me if you can't directly address my statements.

Bowl:
I disagree with the legal definition for this exact reason. If you specifically define it as requiring a penis, as we do in the UK, then yes. It gets very easy to distrust anyone with a penis. The same way it gets very easy to distrust anyone with a gun amidst all the shootings in the US.

But is that fair or right? Should we treat good people with prejudice because of the bad eggs? I don't think so... I think that's a bad way to progress here.

and re the jeans comment: this only works if you presuppose rape requires a penis. Where it doesnt and where "forced envelopment" is included as rape - it entirely falls down.

----

This is probably gonna be my last post here in this thread. I need to work on a way to respond to the points being made and have a real conversation that isn't so incredibly time consuming. Because the fact right now is that there's so many of you guys and only one of lil ol' me, and its incredibly difficult to keep up with everything.

Sorry to disappoint you friends

The ‘forced envelopment’ derail has fuck all to do with sex segregated spaces anyway, two ‘innies’ can’t ‘envelop’ each other, so keeping the cunty people separate to the outie/dicky people continues to be the safest, most sensible approach.

Bye.

You are no friend to women yourfriendly

one more before I go...

Datun
"Is anyone else having the most bizarre mental image of a man nervously looking at a woman who is staring at him with narrowed eyes, in a confined space, and him experiencing the instant fight or flight reaction that so many men experience with fear of forced envelopment?"

This image shouldnt be bizarre - it happens a lot and we should know it does. The fact its bizarre kinda proves my point that we treat the rape of men entirely different despite it happening almost just as much as rape happens to women. We don't take it seriously enough - not that we take the rape of women seriously enough either. But the fact we don't even count it as rape when its a man being raped by a woman is incredibly worrying.

------

Also for those asking for the CDC statistics I referenced. Here you go:

time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/