The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

[IJustHadToNameChange]

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

Stats for arguing with waiverers.

I agree this can cause a threat to female spaces because people who have been abused and have PTSD or similar won’t want to share those spaces with people with male genitalia, no matter how nice or kind they are.

Ahem.

All women are entitled to be free of penises in their safe spaces.

We do not have to display PTSD, or have been attacked or abused BEFORE we are ALLOWED to be in spaces free of penises.

It is a very good way of not having more women who have PTSD, or who have been attacked or abused in the future.

Anyone who thinks women can be allowed to have safe spaces IF they have already been abused, attacked or already are suffering from MALE VIOLENCE - should be nowhere near women.

Otherwise what you are saying is that ALL WOMEN/GIRLS are fair game until they display such affects.

Fuck that shit.

Can we be frank? I think the push to end the boundaries of sex-segregated spaces has less to do with safety and more to do with validation.

Case in point: just went to a large national retailer that sells stuff made in Sweden...new store. I was VERY impressed by their bathroom layouts--traditional men's and women's restrooms, but an additional family/baby room and two "all gender" restrooms. I thought they had it all covered! Imagine my surprise, then, to find myself washing hands next to a clear transwoman in the women's bathroom.

I imagine that, for the old-school transsexuals for whom safety was their primary concern, a private gender neutral bathroom would have been very acceptable. But not anymore. It's about demanding acceptance. Choosing the women's bathroom because "I am a woman, therefore it is my right." Private gender neutral bathroom? No way, transphobic and unnecessary because "I am a real woman." (Cue IW here and let that "penetrate.")

We are giving up our safety and security so that a few be-penised individuals can feel good about themselves. Glad that I could be part of the backdrop in this individual's charade...

Char seems like a nice person

That's what they say about a lot of violent males. How this image is meant to meant women feel safer with people like this in DV refuges & hospital wards, I have absolutely no idea.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/07/no-fundamentally-decent-men-don-t-kill-their-wives-stop-excusing-domestic

I just don't get how that person with the baseball bat is a 'woman'. Can someone please explain?

I'd be genuinely curious to hear what definition of "nice" might include your baseball bat wielding, neoNazi mate above.

I think the fixation on penises as "weapons" is rather silly - and I'm saying this as a victim my self. My rapist raped me because he was an awful person. And had he been a woman or a eunuch, but still the same person- he would have just found a different way to be an abuser.

I'm genuinely curious about the rationale behind a straight up ban on penises. So please, if you could be extra through when trying to explain it I'd be super greatful!

OK, let's see if this works for you: women want a ban on penises in their safe and segregated spaces because penises are attached to men and we cannot trust strange men, because too many of them want to harass and/or hurt - or even kill - us. We believe that the notion that "some women have penises" is absolute and utter nonsense.

Many of us - MANY - had strange men expose their penises to us when we were children and we found it terrifying; too many men like to expose them to girls and women - they seem to find this sexually stimulating. So we also don't want our children exposed to them in our safe and segregated spaces, either.

Finally, we believe that a significant tranche of the men now claiming to be "trans" (within the extremely wide spectrum described by Stonewall) are doing so because they are sexually stimulated by this and by the exciting notion that they might be able to get access to girls and women in their safe and segregated spaces.

THAT is what we feel, believe and know. And no amount of your bizarre clothing-related and other analogies or attempts to persuade us that women can be violent too will change that.

I agree George. I don't think many of the ardent protestors will be happy until they take the whole damn Vaggis

Adding 'penetrate' to the list of words for campaign literature ideas.

I'd be genuinely curious to hear what definition of "nice" might include your baseball bat wielding, neoNazi mate above.

Perhaps they love kittens and mainly crochet [their NeoNazi paraphernalia] with fluffy wool? Or Acrylic as they are allergic?

I just love the tortured reasoning that we are given to allow virtually ANYTHING through the door.

Also, I don't not want to be male or want to be female. I just have a female sense of self, that's just what it is.

No. You don't. Because you have to be one to have that sense.

And again, describe it. You can't. Because it's not a feeling, or a 'sense'.

Do you have any idea how offensive it is to feminists to call womanhood a sense? 117 million girl babies are killed before they are born. I can categorically assure you that they are not being killed because someone thinks they may develop a sense.

Remember you're on a feminist board, here. It's not just about our individual experience. It's about us understanding other women's experience too.

Not being surprised that the MeToo campaign ran to 11,000,000 posts in under 24 hours.

Not being surprised that 20% of females will either be raped or suffer sexual assault during their life. (It's always very telling, to me, that certain people talk about the number of men who do it, not the number of women who are affected by it).

Not being surprised when a woman tells you she walked out of a lift, just because a man walked in who set off her radar.

Not being in the slightest bit surprised that you are framing a threatening, tattooed thug as being a reaction to women's behaviour! Look what you made me do is name of the abusers' manual.

The first chapter is called women rape too, and the second one is not all men are like that and I promise you I'm not one of them, now do what I say.

There are 14,000 men in prison for sex offences and 120 women. It doesn't matter how you cut that up. Two women are week are murdered by men. Not the other way round.

I repeat. Your affinity for women is zero.

And your objections to women's boundaries have been posted on the board a thousand times. You're not saying anything new.

Our resident midnight misogynist, makes all the points you're making, regularly. And he isn't even interested in anything to do with trans. Doesn't get it.

LOUISA

Yes. As someone once said if we can't tell the difference between men and women, how come we know exactly who picks up the dirty socks and cleans the toilet.

I agree this can cause a threat to female spaces because people who have been abused and have PTSD or similar won’t want to share those spaces with people with male genitalia, no matter how nice or kind they are.

Yes another huge red flag. Women don't need your permission to decide their safety and privacy means more than your validation.

I don't have PTSD and the last thing I want in my changing room is a penis. Furthermore, my father-in-law is delightful, I don't want to disrobe in front of him. Nor my teenage son's lovely, funny friends.

Neither do I expect other woman to.

Additionally, I don't want to clean up my underwear, throw up, miscarry, do a pregnancy test, or express milk with them there. The reason you don't understand this is because you, too, do not have to do this.

The reason you don't understand this is because you, too, do not have to do this.

The reason they do not understand is that they are men.

They never will understand it.

All the transwomen that respect women's spaces, are the ones that are not the right type of trans according to the TRAs.

Funny that!

I too am thankfully PTSD free. And still will not be accepting random penis in women's spaces where there's potential nudity.

Don't give a shit if that hurts male people's feelings.

In terms of numbers who will take up self-id, I think it will be a big flop. If you compare the numbers of individuals in Ireland (where they have self-id) with the UK (where it is a medical-legal process) and correct for population size, you end up with roughly the same numbers. I think most transwomen will be too lazy to apply.

What's this got to do with anything?

It's not the point at all. The point is that if self ID comes in it will change the culture to one where literally ANY man, without changing ANYTHING about himself not even his presentation if he doesn't like, will be able to say he's a woman and access women's only spaces at will. It won't matter if he's applied for a GRC since we aren't allowed to ask anyway, but self ID will mean that it's impossible to infer categorically that he can't possibly have one.
Hell, let's face it, even the PROSPECT of Self ID means this is already happening. And it's not even come in yet.

Men who want access to vulnerable women are catching on quick. Its a game changer and they (and we) know it.

Thank you for your posts Maryz and George

The point is that if self ID comes in it will change the culture to one where literally ANY man, without changing ANYTHING about himself not even his presentation if he doesn't like, will be able to say he's a woman and access women's only spaces at will. It won't matter if he's applied for a GRC since we aren't allowed to ask anyway, but self ID will mean that it's impossible to infer categorically that he can't possibly have one.

Hell, let's face it, even the PROSPECT of Self ID means this is already happening. And it's not even come in yet.

Exactly, Elen. Which is why women are so concerned and angry atm. If men are classed as women we face the prospect of no longer even being able to name ourselves, let alone keeping our sex based protections.

If men are classed as women we face the prospect of no longer even being able to name ourselves, let alone keeping our sex based protections.
Yes and if crime statistics are no longer kept according to natal sex we won't even be able to name male violence.

Another thread that works as it’s own intact ecosystem as to why women want to keep sex segregated spaces and why it’s more important now than it was 10-15 years ago.

Tryingtounderstand and Homefrom are the transwomen we previously had unspoken ‘gentlewomens’ agreements with - they know they are not women, they know they are not female bodied, they try and manage their dysphoria and live peaceful lives without putting women in traumatic or unsafe positions, physically or politically.

Then another transwoman comes along, mansplains rape and tells us women are all violent anyway and therefore have no rights to have privacy and dignity whilst washing out our menstrual cups/having miscarriages in cubicles and the goodwill we felt for the first two trans posters gets shat all over by the third one.

Exactly. It's some kind of nightmare to realise that the very thing you're worried about, the violation of your boundaries from invasion of privacy to outright assault will be disappeared.

"You can't complain that this doesn't work, that men are upsetting you, distressing you or attacking you. Clearly they aren't. It's you women who are doing it to each other."

Male violence will be represented as an increase in female violence. Is being.

Those four men who identify as women beating the crap out of another man in the underground, all portrayed as women.

And the general public none the wiser! The comments saying see, women are just as bad!

And this thread is a microcosm of that. Trying to convince women that men are no threat, when that process of convincing is the threat.

BettyDuMonde

I completely agree with that.

@YourFriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans, please refrain from using the term cis in your posts as many women find it offensive, (as well as being completely irrelevant), and I think it's actually against MN guidelines anyway.
The term you're thinking of is simply woman, we require NO PREFIX.

betty agree completely.

I think the thing that possibly scares me most of all is that future criminologists might look back at the early-mid 21st century as the time when female violence and sex crime began to rise; and wonder what caused it. And maybe some bright spark will get to do some research into whether having a penis is the common factor. Although chances are they wouldn't get funding.

Another thread that works as it’s own intact ecosystem as to why women want to keep sex segregated spaces and why it’s more important now than it was 10-15 years ago.

It's like the irony in naming yourself 'your friendly neighbourhood anything' already raises the hackles. Yeah right - course you are.

When I was a young teen with heavy periods, I struggled with inserting tampons in toilet cubicles, and sometimes leaked blood on the cubicle floor, having to then mop it up with toilet paper. Then I’d come out of the cubicle to wash my hands, with my hands sometimes covered in blood.

How lovely that I had the privacy of just being amongst women, without having to think about a man being in the cubicle, only a couple of inches away from me.

I agree too.

I've asked repeatedly how transpeople on these threads justify the likes of Travis Alabanza, Alok, Pips Bunce, Eddie Izzard etc demanding access to women's spaces & opportunities when they don't even really identify as female & how women are meant to tell the difference between:

A) a male who genuinely has dysphoria
B) a male who thinks their taste in clothes, shoes & nail polish gives them the right to go where they like
C) a male who is taking advantage in order to get access to women

Because if the answer was "It doesn't matter until they do something wrong & then you can just report it" that argument's already been thoroughly discredited by someone on another thread explaining why they couldn't just use the men's & report any problems.