The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

[IJustHadToNameChange]

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

Stats for arguing with waiverers.

I just want to ask, are any transwomen born female? But I know that logic no longer applies when you are trying to doubleplusthink the MNnewspeak in order to post such topics

Sorry, doubleplusgoodthink, obviously!

Ah, you have discovered the WrongSex paradox.

Namely, sex is utterly irrelevant in matters of identity, and it is taboo and wrong to reference sex, ever. Identity must never be questioned. In shortlists, statistics, women's spaces. Gender is unassailable, sex is irrelevant, unmentionable.

Except if YOU want to identify as a transwoman, which you absolutely must not.

Because you are completely and utterly the wrong sex.

Thx I was just working on this :)

This message needs to be conveyed more.
By the media for a start.

Fascinating that this appears to represent such a majority group. Can we go back to referring to transsexuals now, then? If there’s a penis, then that’s not any sort of woman.

Not surprising.

Gender dysphoria is often defined on Reddit as "any questioning of gender norms at all".

You don't have to change bodies or behaviour or anything, but if you internally question gender stereotypes and how you match up to them then you're in.

Toxic masculinity has a lot to answer for.

(extract from Fairplay 4 Women article cited)
How many transgender people legally transition?
The number of GRC that have been granted since 2004 is 4,910 (June 2018). Three quarters are owned by male-born transgender people and mostly aged 50+. Based on prevalence estimate of 200,000-500,000 trans in UK this means only 1-3% of trans people have changed the sex on their birth certificate. The overwhelming majority of trans people remain legally the sex their were born.

How many transgender people medically transition?
In 2011, GIRES estimated that only 20% of the UK transgender population are likely to seek medical treatment for their condition at some stage. Based on a UK trans prevalence of 1% and assuming a 50:50 split of males and females that means there are 200,000 male-born transgender people in the UK will no body modifications whatsoever. Of the 50,000 [male-born people who are transgender**] that do seek medical treatment most of these would be expected to be undergoing hormone treatment and/or breast implants. Only a very small proportion of this 20% will be have genital reconstruction surgery.

No one knows for sure how many transwomen keep their penis, but there are fewer than 10 surgeons in the UK who can do the relevant operation. Even if they each performed one operation every single day this would still only represent an absolute max of 3,500 surgeries each year. The actual number performed is likely to be very much smaller than this. An estimate of just a few hundred operation each year would not be unreasonable."

**edited

This is just evidence of what we know. That the GRA was created for and refers to Transsexuals throughout. Not transgender. That doctors advised parliament in 2004 when the law was passed it would apply to about 5000 people and it has almost exactly 14 years later.

It was not written for and does not refer to the wider transgender umbrella that is now seeking access.

Those age figures are misleading because about half the people who got a GRA did so in the first couple of years, like me. We were already living as TS and in many cases had for decades. So there was a huge catch up factor of those decades of cases being registered.

Since then it stabilised to about 200 - 300 new GRA granted every year. This is closely in line with the estimated prevalence of those who are diagnosed as TS.

The vast majority of those who registered for a GRA in those first 2000 or so had had surgery as transition was only organised by the NHS in that way in the earlier days. This was the pathway.

The number of NHS surgeries on TS people runs at about 1000 over the past decade. There may well be more carried out overseas or privately.

Taken together it means that probably something like 60 - 70% of the 4900 or so have had surgery.

The fact that the wider trans community is far less likely to have any is the reason we have this massive push now to alter the GRA to remove all medical assessment and psychological gatekeeping. They have not had it and don't want it but want the rights (such as altered birth certificate) that presently only exist with medical approval.

Whilst nobody actually changes sex - the reason for, process by and extent to which transsexuals transition versus the wider transgender community means the two are very different indeed.

Yet the government is selling this as if the law is not working in the way it was intended.

When it absolutely is as figures prove, would not have been passed IMO in 2004 had it been on a different set of rules but is now being waived through as if not enough it was written for are applying.

To be blunt that is a lie.

Rowan many trans people go abroad for surgery. Results in the UK are not as good as those elsewhere, therefore you can't use that logic for your argument because the vast majority who /do/ get it done abroad won't be recorded in the same way.

@CuriousAboutSamphire
It depends on how you define female. If merely having XX chromosomes is enough - then yes absolutely. There are XX trans women who exist.

@BarrackerBarmer

I disagree sex is unmentionable - but I do think that people are coming at it from different perspectives. From yours? Absolutely, most trans women are male. From the "sex as a spectrum" perspective, trans women are neither male or female but rather somewhere in between. From a legal perspective, according to the EU trans women are female.

You're entitled to your perspective and its not wrong - but neither is everyone else's which they're entitled to also. They're all just different lenses to view the same stuff through. And are useful in different ways and contexts.

@the thread in general
Why does it matter to you if a trans woman "retains" her penis? What's the rationale behind this being a big deal for you guys? Genuinely curious.

I am curious as to why men who wish to be female keep a male sex organ

Can you answer that ?

"What's the rationale behind this being a big deal for you guys? Genuinely curious."

I just don't know how to answer this kindly - I'm incredulous. Are you being serious?

therefore you can't use that logic for your argument

forale
I have quoted an extract from the Fairplay for Women's article linked in the OP.

The original page can be linked from the OP where you will find the references for data etc.

So you're a bit hasty to direct your comment to me.

If it had been my comment, I would ask you to please not tell me what logic I can and can't use for an argument.

HTH

@anyfucker
I would argue we aren't men who wish to be women, rather we're women who were born with male bodies. So I find the whole premise of your question to be hard to answer, as it relies on what I believe to be a bad way to frame what trans women are.

@mogleflop
I give you full permission to answer it unkindly then. I want your opinion. I'm not about to get offended by and hit report on you so don't worry.

I would argue we aren't men who wish to be women, rather we're women who were born with male bodies.

And what is your evidence to back up that argument?

So if you are women who are born with male bodies why do so many of you keep the most obvious external marker of maleness ?

Surely you would want to get rid of it. Every time you undress/use your penis it is a reminder, surely ?

People who retain male genitalia should not use female sex-segregated facilities. Male born people with penises should not be trying to claim womanhood, should not be conferring upon themselves the identity woman, should not be joining girl guides, should not be entering rape counselling as counsellors, should not be using the ‘sex’ provisions in the EA as women. They shouldn’t be entering the female estate in the prison system.
I’m not sure what you are finding hard to understand.
I’m totally fine with transgender people. You can wear what you want, call yourself what you want, and do whatever you like with your genitalia. It’s entirely your choice. I’m happy to be your pal, have a beer, work with you, whatever. But as a man, you should be using male services. Not mine. Not my daughters. Not my mothers. Not my daughters’ Muslim roommmates.
As a man who chooses to present differently, I think you are making great choices not to be bound by the gender hierarchy. But claiming to be a woman is where it ends, and where your choices affect women. As a man, I support your right to challenge norms. I do not support your right to encode them further into society by claiming they overrule sex. Nope.
Penises are not female, and should not be present where sex-segregation is expected.

Why does it matter to you if a trans woman "retains" her penis? What's the rationale behind this being a big deal for you guys? Genuinely curious. - because the whole point of sex segregation is to segregate people with penises from those without (in changing rooms, communal sleeping areas, refuges, prisons, sports).

If you genuinely don't understand that, maybe answer a question for me:

Why do we currently segregate on the basis of sex? What is the reason, historically for such segregation?

Could it possibly be for reasons of privacy and (more importantly) safety. Could it be because people with penises (in general) pose a thread those people without?

And I use ‘you’ to transwomen in a generic sense. I have no idea what your personal circumstances are. For clarity, the transmen I chat to on this point are as unilaterally selfish as transwomen - they are usually about 14 though, and will change their minds about how cool it is to use the men’s and force women to share with men too, when they mature a little. (Or detransition - whatever happens first).

Well that piece makes Fair Play for Women look stupid IMO because not all trans people assigned male at birth are trans women - the overwhelming majority aren't trans women. Drag Queens aren't trans women. Transvestites aren't trans women.

Someone with a male body was born male.
XY in every cell including the brain.

If a male makes no changes to that body at all and takes no female hormones, how exactly are they any different to any other male bodied person on the planet?

Clothing choice changes nothing. That is simply self expression.

Why are TRA adults pushing so much for children to medically transition, yet in the next breath claim they are more than happy to keep their male organs and have no dysphoria?

Whether you give a shit about me being angry or not is irrelevant. Others would report me.

However, I think I can safely tell you that I'm amazed that anyone could try to live life as a woman, without grasping how penises make a difference. Do some googling for me would you?

Why women need safe spaces.

What it's like to grow up as a woman in rape culture.

What rape culture means for women.

Why women fear men.

#MeToo

Then come back and say as brazenly as you can that it doesn't matter if someone has a penis or not. Tell that to every woman, like me, who's been raped and assaulted, and try to say it like you really mean it.

And watch as we stare because how the fuck do you put millennia of rape culture, of female socialisation and male oppression, aggression, and privilege into words?

How do you explain growing up and learning to be on guard 24/7?

How do you explain that penises can never be female - because being female isn't a choice, it's a body you're born into, and it's an oppression?

Here's the thing: when there is no definition of "trans" or "woman" anymore, anyone can claim the label for any duration of time and do whatever they want.

And you might think you're the most well-intentioned person in the universe, but to be honest, if you're actually unable to understand this, you shouldn't be in female spaces or dictating who's in them.

Unbelievable.

@hangingaroundtheportal

My evidence? I am a trans woman, who is both a woman and has a male body.

Even outside of trans people though these exceptions to the general rule of thumb exist. Such as with intersex cais XY women. Before you say I'm appropriating, I'm not. Intersex is very different to trans. Please listen.

These women are undeniably women, but also they're undeniably male. As they are full XY males whose bodies don't process androgen hormones. This means their bodies never masculinise in utero, as you may know.. All humans start out with a fairly female fetus. Hormones based on the gonads tell the body which way to push its development. Since cais bodies can't process the hormones which would normally turn a fetus into an infant male body they remain as the default template; female.

They are not born with ovaries and stuff but are born with vaginas and usually don't find out they have this condition until their periods fail to begin during puberty.

So male women definitely exist. No two ways about it.

@anyfucker
My dysphoria is horrible and absolutely I despise changing and showering even when I'm all by myself. Let alone when I'm around other people where the social aspect of dysphoria ramps the discomfort up even higher.

For myself personally however? There are a lot of complex reasons why I haven't made much effort to get surgery. I don't have much faith in what i can get for free and I can't afford a trip to Thailand. Plus months of lying in bed while everything heals isn't a great thing to do - trust me, I already know this as I've had a genital surgery when I was a child already.

Also dilation sounds horrendous and I'm not sure how well I would handle all the pressures and stresses related to the whole process currently. I transitioned around 6 years ago and I'm still trying to secure a prescription and have my health care monitored. Something which has already brought me to tears countless times. So I'm not in the best head space for the whole shindig right now.

I don't know of any trans women who would rather have a penis and testicles rather than a full female reproductive system. And like... If a magic spell exists which could do the switcheroo with none of the downsides of the process or the results I listed above? I think you'd see a sharp decline in the number of trans women who "retain the penis".

The Stonewall umbrella says that transvestites, aka crossdressers, are trans. And therefore as entitled to anyone else to become legally women under a self-ID regime. As would be any male person regardless of diagnosis or truthful assertion of sense of self. If they say so, they are so.