The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

[IJustHadToNameChange]

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

Stats for arguing with waiverers.

Just popping in to reiterate how happy I am to see tryingtolisten and homefromthehills contributions. Oh, and that snap is talking shite again, obvs.

"Homely", though...

I know, right?

I'm quite sure that all the women who take pregnancy tests, scrub blood out of their underwear, miscarry, or throw up with morning sickness in a public toilet, frequently glance about them and think well this is homely.

I'm talking about relieving the symptoms of dysphoria, which makes people require major surgery and a lifetime of medication. It seems similar to people who feel the need to change their bodies through plastic surgery because they are distressed that they don't measure up to a fictional ideal. Or people who feel the need to have a limb amputated because it feels 'wrong' to them. I think it would be better for all these people to feel comfortable with the body they have, rather than requiring surgical and pharmaceutical changes to it.

Now you are equating medical transition with amputation of a limb.

This conversion therapy concept. If you are transsexual - which means you KNOW you have a body that is one sex and yet have an intractable inner awareness that this is wrong that grows into an inability to carry on without correcting what you see as an error of some sort - then you have to know something is wrong here.

By the time you are old enough you know this is not a mistake by God, my first belief, or something that magic spells will cure, but a reality clash between inner and outer self.

So you are pretty well driven to see doctors because they are there to fix problems and this is by any definition a big problem.

It really helped seeing this in the 50s and 60s as I did in an era where there was no go to - oh you are trans - scenario. None of us - my teachers, my parents, my GP, me, thought this because we had never heard of it.

So this was treated as a medical anomaly to be investigated in ways science then could study. And it was a long game involving various 'cures' throughout childhood to try to tip me into the right direction.

The focus was solving the problem. Finding a cure. And they tried hard and I was willing to try with them but I was never convinced because the inner sense was there all the time and you could shove it into the background but it never went away.

So I was able to see what was attempted in the days when there was no trans ideology and no medical practice as such. I saw doctors before there even was a specialist in the UK. When I started on the transition path they asked me to write up my childhood diaries as a document they could put in the hospital library to help new doctors understand what was still something they did not get taught in med school.

I find it easier to look at this realistically now because of these things and whilst it remains only my experience and I should not impose it onto others it is obvious that in today's world how this is panning out and treated by society and science is far different because of the context that surrounds being trans.

But, yes, at heart it was regarded as an illness and a problem to be solved and I think that way worked better than just accepting it as a widespread 'thing' that 'just is' and which is best handled by doing what the (non) patient says.

Because I think in something like this you are too close to be the sole judge of what is the right thing to do here.

@Lougle your question about ‘downstairs surgery’ isn’t upsetting.

It’s really hard to explain Gender Dysphoria to people who don’t suffer from it and that’s 90% of the problem - it’s like an invisible disease to everyone else. Below is just my experience- others might have different experiences.

I can’t tell you why but part of my Gender Dysphoria (from earliest memories) has always been down a question of ‘why do I have these appendages down below?’ and a total discomfort with them that only grew worse at puberty and continued to get worse (this is just part of my dysphoria).

Surgery I guess offers us a chance to be rid of that daily battle and to live a more productive life.

I’m well aware surgery doesn’t make me a natal woman or change my biology. And I’m aware that it’s not for everyone and it’s not right for everyone which is why the gatekeeping needs to be there.

As I’ve said elsewhere, in my opinion trans women are trans women (TWATW not TWAW) and that is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. It is just another variation in life.

I genuinely appreciate the dialogue and input by the transwomen who have taken their time to participate in this conversation. I am reminded of how painful and incredibly challenging it must be to live with such a profound dysphoria. I am truly empathic for what you have experienced.

That said, there are a few statements in this thread regarding which I feel simply cannot be left without any challenge or discussion.

You're entitled to your perspective and its not wrong - but neither is everyone else's which they're entitled to also. They're all just different lenses to view the same stuff through. And are useful in different ways and contexts.

No. When we are discussing the safeguarding of girls and women and the permanent sterilization of our children, there cannot be “agreement to disagree.” There IS a right and wrong and I will not be silent. Failure to speak up is being complicit in allowing policies that will (and do) cause great harm to females. Rape is not a matter on which we can just view through “different lenses.”

I'm a victim too - so I'm fully aware of all of this. Many trans women are victims of sexual violence - usually at the hands of men also, though sometimes women are the abusers too.

I think we need to define violence here. These “abusive” women… Are you referring to “misgendering?” Curious glances? Even statements asking why one is in a sex-protected space? I’m sorry. These are NOT forms of violence. They certainly may cause one to feel sadness and pain, but they are NOTHING compared to assault.

Otherwise, if you are suggesting that women have been physically or sexually assaulting transwomen, I’ll need to see some evidence. I think we all know who the perpetrators of sexual violence are, and they are not XX individuals.

Thank you homefromthehills for your perspective.

YourFriendly etc
It depends on how you define female. If merely having XX chromosomes is enough - then yes absolutely. There are XX trans women who exist.

What? The very definition of female is XX chromosomes. How can a woman "transition" into something she already is?

Today biology, tomorrow we'll repeal gravity?

People, Occam's Razor applies - the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. In this case - chromosomes determine biological sex.

“No because for me most part they don't live as women so they would not be entitled to Self-ID and, because transvestites do not identify as being female most wouldn't want to”

Could someone please explain what it means to live as woman?

I have a unisex name, wear mostly unisex clothes, have short hair, work in a job that is mostly male and have hobbies and interests that are more common in men.

How do I know if I’m living as a man or a woman ?

What would be the deciding factor ? How could I prove it ?

Who the feck knows. Totally bonkers

Men can’t turn into women. Women can’t turn into men

and, because transvestites do not identify as being female most wouldn't want to”

Men with autogynephilia absolutely identify as being female.

The trans widows thread on this very site is a testament to that.

It’s a load a shite stuff though5 up by attention seekers and feck only knows how they got the power from our cowardly politicians.

Pffft the cowards

And get this shit3 stuff away from kids

I think it's reasonable to feel 'not male' and identify with being a woman, yet not necessarily want to undergo painful surgery with risks of ongoing health problems

Absolutely, and I think that is a position most people would whole heartedly support. It is important to note though that the person you describe is indisputably male, and that this cannot be changed.

Now you are equating medical transition with amputation of a limb

In what way are they different? Seems like a very fair company to me?

@L0UISA you’re a biological woman so you don’t have to ‘prove’ anything.

But for trans people going through the gatekeeping process, as part of our ‘real life experience’ we have to change our name via deed poll to something more feminine (or masculine), have all our documents and ID updated to prove we’re living in role and present as ‘female’ or ‘male’ e.g. wage slips, utility bills, driving license, passport.

Now we’re in 2018 some of this does sound a bit silly. Depending on which gender clinic you go to and which Doctors you see some can have very 1950’sish stereotypical views of how a trans person should present (but I don’t think they have spy cameras and unless it has changed, only see you at appointments).

I think that aspect, IMO, is social construct and stereotypes. I’m not a makeup addict and my main thoughts on going to work each morning is ‘shit is that the time’ and ‘have I got everything I need?’. If I’ve got five minutes to make myself look presentable to myself that’s great.

But how anyone acts of either gender should be up to them. My dysphoria has nothing to do with clothes and makeup.

Trying

I don’t understand why u want to be me. Wat ave I got that u want ?

Am a woman.

I really don’t understand it

Trying I am "enjoying" your posts (for want of a better word)

But trying, if you are comfortable in your life as a transwoman, believe that TWATW and not TWAW, how do you square women being forced to accept that there is no difference, and the dissolution of sex-segregated spaces? You can’t on the one hand say it’s just an everyday variability, and at the other believe it is not only necessary to change your documentation (but not your body) and that women’s legal protections should be dissolved?
Why does the sex class woman have to be changed to incorporate male bodied people?

I’m also trying not to be cross at the naïveté that suggests women don’t have to prove anything. Demonstrating difference.
Try being a gender non conforming woman instead of a gender non conforming man who believes this makes him a woman.

Transwomen’s Insistence on adherence to feminine stereotypes is making it much harder to erase gender stereotypes. Not helped by the prevalence of transwomen on social media trying to assert they are better at womaning than butch lesbians and ugly TERFs.
It’s very damaging that the socially dictated rules of gender are narrowing in response to the trans ideology. It was frustrating enough before. But misogynists will always seek to define womanhood and police inclusion.

Well am still waiting to hear wat it is I have as a women that somebod6 wants so badly

Ah, I see they're appropriating conversion therapy, as well as intersex now.

trans women are trans women (TWATW not TWAW) and that is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of

Exactly. This is what most of us agree with.

The whole TWAW thing is bull, everyone knows it, even the bloody TRA. How does it help anyone if we pretend people can actually change sex?

And again, if surgery is so horrific that most don't go down that route, then why the fuck is it being pushed on kids asap? Or is it because most teen trans are FTM so the TRA don't give a fuck if they cut their tits off or become infertile?

Women, children and transexuals are all collateral damage.

Littlbrowndog you may need to go ask the transactivists on Twitter that kind of question. They will not come on here.

Transsexuals who are on here are not 'wanting' anything 'you have' .

In fact speaking for myself I don't want anything at all. I have been living very happily and quietly a pretty normal life for a long time and not remotely full of any stereotypes.

I would rather have nothing to do with all this trans nonsense, just as you probably wouldn't.

But it is what it is and we have a degree of common cause in trying to stop the changes that potentially could follow the planned changes to the GRA.

After that I hope to get back to my (sort of) retirement!

Scratching my head here at Snappity attempting a gotcha moment by suggesting that having a penis surgically removed is being compared to having a limb surgically removed by these awfully unreasonable women.

Well, yes, Snappity. I'm totally unclear why this is confusing or shocking to you. Removing a body part is removing a body part, no?

Ta home

But does that mean u don’t want to be a woman cos it’s a hard thing to understand in wat it all means.

I don’t mean to be rude on u by way home