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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

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BeUpStanding · 20/07/2018 21:49

Human Nooooooooo!

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 21:54

Brace yourself, Human!😂🤯

AvtarRamKaur · 20/07/2018 22:00

It's classic doublethink, isn't it?

I think some of them have delved so deep into the rabbit hole that it would require a mining excavator to get them back into the real world, and nobody likes to eat that much crow. So they keep digging instead, and pull other people down with them to wallow in the mud.

I think some of them are liars, yes, but I think a lot more of them are True Believers, which worries me more.

seafret · 20/07/2018 22:01

great thread :)

All I have to say is that perhaps it is the case that we have a mix of believers, delusionals, the mass-delusional brainwashed sheeples, hidden agenda drivers, polite and kinds (and their cousins poilte and afraid while backing away from the crazy people),, the battered and weakned, the 'I'm not going to be the odd one outs', the what's in it for Me's, the venegful 'well you wanted equality' wankers, the internalised misogynists and the outright 'so come on and fight me I dare you' liars and manipulators.

The fact that they are all happen to converge on this issue is a big problem, but I do not believe they are all one and the same. People s a group are complex.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 20/07/2018 22:09

fermats

I am not diving into any rifts

Im sure i saw lastgirls hand up though

She'd be much better at rift diving if you ask me

Iused2BanOptimist · 20/07/2018 22:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BeUpStanding · 20/07/2018 22:10

Before being diverted by a desperate attempt to pull Human back from the void, I was going to say what a fantastic OP.

I do agree with Certain though, that:
I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

The fulcrum of this whole debate is TWAW. The conversations I've had with slightly woke friends who just want to be nice and inclusive, often boil down to them not understanding the significance of changing the definition of the word 'woman'.

I hate to say it but there's a correlation with class as well. It's harder for people with privilege to see or understand how women and girls are vulnerable. They think we've evolved past all that.

The cognitive dissonance involved in thinking everything's fine blows my tiny fricking mind when everyone know about #metoo, Jimmy Saville, Rotherham, Telford, the explosion of child porn, care home abuse scandals, Catholic church abuse scandals, etc etc etc.

And for the millionth bloody time, I am not saying that trans people are more likely to do any of these things... But the changes they want to make in law will make it even easier for those who are predators to prey on vulnerable women and children.

Iused2BanOptimist · 20/07/2018 22:10

Seafret YY

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 22:17

Obviously there is a lot of doublethink going on - it's not all cynical mendacity (although there's a fair bit of that too).

But I maintain my original position: when people claim to believe that male human beings are the same in material reality as female human beings, they are lying. Whether they realise it or not.

Hence my suggestion that we move on from arguing whether 'trans women are women'. And focus on the right for female human beings to define ourselves separately from males, in language and in law.

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LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 22:17

😂 Rufus I hate to disappoint...I can't swim!! I was always in detention at school for skiving PE; so much so that eventually I was put in with the boys. So when we went to the pool I just cowered in the corner.

🤔I wonder if that was the stirrings of my life long learning of feminism?

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 22:18

AND love of feminism. Feminism is my friend.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 22:20

conversations I've had with slightly woke friends who just want to be nice and inclusive, often boil down to them not understanding the significance of changing the definition of the word 'woman'.

YY but I don't think they actually really believe that they are women, I think as you say they think it doesn't cost anything to include them.

seafret · 20/07/2018 22:33

donkey so we give up on the word woman and fight for what, female instead?

Because the problem is that some people want to be women/female/ whatever we name oursleves even if we called ourselves trolls, htey would (probably) want that. Whilst also saying look at how silly some owmen are for demeaning themsleves and look how much better at womaning we are.

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 22:34

The conversations I've had with slightly woke friends who just want to be nice and inclusive, often boil down to them not understanding the significance of changing the definition of the word 'woman'.

Yes, but my point is that while they might want to change the definition of women to include men, they are still not at any point actually confused about the fact that adult human females are a distinct category of persons who are not the same as males. They just think that we shouldn't have any words to describe this, because it hurts the feelings of men who want to be regarded as women.

I mean that, right there, shows the lie up for what it is: somehow, despite claiming to see males as women, they still manage to never put the sexist expectations on them that they put on us cunty types; they still know which type of 'women' are supposed to give up our boundaries, accommodate others at our own expense and be shamed for not being 'nice' and 'kind' enough. And funnily enough, it's never the male ones.

Take Owen Jones. Swears up and down all day long that 'trans women are women', and women who won't go along with this are as bad as racists and homophobes. But if you look at the way he talks to and about self-identified trans women, and the way he talk to and about those he knows to be women, it's clear that he doesn't see us as the same type of person at all.

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 20/07/2018 22:37

It's also about cognitive dissonance. People see everyone agreeing that men can be women so they agree too because they aren't confident enough to go against the apparent mainstream or they want to fit in etc.

Then they have to reconcile their belief that they are an honest / intelligent / independent thinker with their knowledge that they've been going around saying that men can be women. Doubling down on TWAW becomes the least costly way of resolving the dissonance.

People are prepared to believe all sorts of stuff under these kind of circumstances

SirVixofVixHall · 20/07/2018 22:38

I agree op. I was watching that Question Time with Paris Lees, and while professing to believe that transwomen are women, no-one treated Paris as they would treat a woman. There was a peculiar sort of over-compensatory fawning. The same thing has happened in interviews I’ve seen with other well known transwomen . They are treated the way that an unstable person in my wider family is treated (A bully with added mental health issues making him a loose cannon). They are treated as women sometimes treat drunken men who might kick off at any moment, or overtired toddlers who need to be kept from a full-blown tantrum. Everything the interviewer says is designed to express “ I believe you, I believe you are a real woman “ just as everything they do says loudly quite the opposite. Big Brother with IW was a masterclass in this.

seafret · 20/07/2018 22:39

Well Owen Jones would obviously prefer male women wouldn't he, what with being gay. Its all the 'right' bits of feminity plus the right bits of being male, and being essentially male.

Some of the pics I have seen lately make me think that he has some level of attraction to Paris Lees at least.

But maybe he just that cuddly and smug with all the girls.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 20/07/2018 22:39

If you want to understand more about how people can be manipulated, this is a fascinating read.

seafret · 20/07/2018 22:43

yes over-compensatory fawning and appeasing the unstable bullies. I missed 'appeasers' of my list of peeps.

flourella · 20/07/2018 22:45

Hence my suggestion that we move on from arguing whether 'trans women are women'. And focus on the right for female human beings to define ourselves separately from males, in language and in law

I do understand your point. But there are so many people who are insisting that TWAW (whether it be through dishonesty, brainwashing, credulity, wanting to appear woke, whatever) that when we try and define what female is, they will just say that they are included. If our bid to define ourselves is to have any legitimacy, and be allowed to stand as only including actual females, don't we have to bring the lie and the willingness to go along with the lie crashing down before we start? How do we do that?

FeminaSum · 20/07/2018 22:46

It's also interesting that the people who claim that you're a man or woman based on your gender identity, biology is completely irrelevant and you have to ask someone to know what they are - don't actually go around asking every single person they meet if they're a man or a woman. How can they possibly tell without asking?! It's almost as if...they don't actually believe the nonsense they spout on Twitter.

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 22:47

donkey so we give up on the word woman and fight for what, female instead?

Absolutely not, seafret. I never suggested that, only that we stop engaging in fruitless arguments about whether 'trans women are women'. But we probably are going to have to use 'female' a fair bit, because we need to ground the legal definition of woman in biology, and we need to remind people of the reality of sexed bodies. It's because of the differences between male and female bodies that we need sex segregation in places like prisons and change rooms in the first place. How a person feels about their identity is irrelevant for the purposes of sex segregation. Only bodies matter.

Of course, that does just mean (as we are seeing) that TRAs will start claiming to be 'female' too. But it's a harder sell because everyone knows that female and male applies to animals as well - they're harder to separate from biology.

Because the problem is that some people want to be women/female/ whatever we name oursleves even if we called ourselves trolls, htey would (probably) want that.

Absolutely, yes, they would. Whatever we call ourselves is the word they will want. Trans-trolls ARE trolls!

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BeUpStanding · 20/07/2018 22:49

they are still not at any point actually confused about the fact that adult human females are a distinct category of persons who are not the same as males.

God I hope you're right. I think there are a few people genuinely confused, there's so much trans propaganda out there.

My brain hurts. I can't think about this anymore tonight. The world has gone mad and I'm going to bed.

Great thread though Smile

seafret · 20/07/2018 22:57

Unfortunately some are claiming to be female already Donkey.

#biologymatters or something. We shall not give up!

LangCleg · 20/07/2018 22:58

They are treated as women sometimes treat drunken men who might kick off at any moment, or overtired toddlers who need to be kept from a full-blown tantrum.

This.